Losing work to film students

Awesome Box

Awesome Box

Active member
Hey guys,

So I'm still fairly new to the forums and I've come across heaps of useful information thus far. And from what I can tell there is a lot of highly experienced DP's on this forum who have seen just about every possible scenario play out in relation to working in the film industry. I have looked all over the forum and around the internet in general but I can't quite seem to find any advice or more importantly first hand knowledge of what to do when you find your self in a similar scenario.

So to reiterate, my problem is that ever since graduating from film school I have worked my hardest to get on set and learn as much as possible about the art of Cinematography from working under Directors of Photography, to reading and watching as much as possible. I have worked on dozens of different projects, from TVC's to Corporates and Shorts to Features, in the capacity of anything and everything to do with camera and lighting. I've been Gaffer, 1st AC, Camera Operator and even Gripped a few things.

But what really seems to get at me is that now that I believe I am at the level to begin DPing work of my own, why is it that I am constantly met with the challenge of having to prove myself against Film students currently studying or only recently graduate.

They never have any show reel material that isn't from work directly related to their studies and they don't have nearly as many references and credits as I. And a most of the time they don't even fully understand the requirements of the job of DP. Most that have crossed my path believe that it is simply the job of operating the camera and talking to the Director about the next shot, where as I know that there is way more to the job. From creating an overall visual idea for how the Director wants the film to look in pre-production, to effectively lighting each scene to add to the drama and create a desired mood.

I have found that a lot of the DP's work is hidden in subtleties and subtext, something that less experience or versed people don't pick up on until you point it out.

So why is it that when I am in discussions with a Director or Producer about shooting a project of theirs that I am constantly putting in the effort to discuss styles, visuals and the process when they turn away from me and go with the film student who has access to equipment through their university? And more often then not they will take my ideas and incorporate them into their projects.

It's not like I am unable to bring equipment to the job. I have slowly but steadily built up my kit to incorporate enough gear to easily shoot smaller projects. But it feels like there must be something I'm missing or do I need to just move on and focus on the next thing?

Any one have any thoughts or would like to share their experiences when first starting out and trying to land the first few jobs? It just feels like if I can't even compete with a film student then why bother even trying to make it as a DP.
 
It sounds like you're doing everything right craft-wise. The key is simply networking. All of my experience to date seems to point to the simple fact that acquiring film work is 90% who you know.

Get to know producers, keep them updated with work you're doing and hopefully you'll eventually be at the forefront of someone's mind when they're thinking about bringing a cinematographer on-board.

As for film students with access to equipment - well unfortunately there's nothing much you can do about that. All productions need gear, and if one person can bring that gear with them for minimal (or no) cost. Well that's always a big point on a producer's checklist. On the plus side though, with so much affordable equipment out there these days - it's not impossible to acquire the basics to cover 90% of your shooting needs.
 
+1. When I hire camerapeople, it's about the image they can deliver, but also what it's going to be like to be with them for days, how they'll be with the client or talent, gear they add (even gels, follow focus), and many other factors. Freelance hiring is where the rubber hits the road of human factors. Filmmaking requires so much subtlety and flexibility. Those that get hired are not always "the best of best" but for sure they're the best at covering the most bases that the director and/or producer needs covered.

Grug said:
It sounds like you're doing everything right craft-wise. The key is simply networking. All of my experience to date seems to point to the simple fact that acquiring film work is 90% who you know.

Get to know producers, keep them updated with work you're doing and hopefully you'll eventually be at the forefront of someone's mind when they're thinking about bringing a cinematographer on-board.

As for film students with access to equipment - well unfortunately there's nothing much you can do about that. All productions need gear, and if one person can bring that gear with them for minimal (or no) cost. Well that's always a big point on a producer's checklist. On the plus side though, with so much affordable equipment out there these days - it's not impossible to acquire the basics to cover 90% of your shooting needs.
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Okay. Maybe a little more information would help. And for your information most of theses people I know through my networks and have worked with before.

The most recent scenario where this happened, I was invited to a Meeting with the Producer, Director and Writer of the script. Now I have worked with the Director (not a very technical director) before on heaps of shoots, only in the capacity of Gaffer and 1st AC. He approached me about possibly shooting this short film script he is going to Direct and I naturally wanted to see it first. So, cut back to the meeting that took place and I walk in to find the Director, Producer, Writer and a four guy sitting there. I naturally assume that the fourth guy is another one of the Producers and think nothing of it.

I talk with the Director about the style he wants and if he can reference any films that he likes the look of so I can understand where he is coming from with it. After am hour of discussion I start to throw out some ideas, and he seems to like them. The Producer also banters back and forth with us about the visuals that we can achieve within the budget. And of course the inevitable conversation about budget comes up. We discuss it and I am comfortable that we can pull it off on a reasonably low budget of less then $500.00.

They agree and I leave the meeting. As I leave the Director asks me if I can start working on a rough idea for a shot list given all the feedback I had received from him about what he wants. I tell him that I will send through some stuff when I can.

So jump forward a couple days and I have been talking with the Director and he has asked me to do all this work. Of course I am pretty sure I've got the job as why get me working if I'm not the guy your going with. I do up a rough shot list, come up with a lighting plan and send it all through. The reply I then get back is rather annoying and is what sparked me to create this thread. The Director sends back that he will compare it with the other candidates work and get back to me with a decision.

I later found out that the fourth guy in the room was the other candidate for the DP position. A university student who is friends with the Producer. What really annoys me is that I did all of that work on the script, made shot lists, lighting plans and took the job seriously only to find out that it was more or less a test. But the worst part is that the student would have been able to incorporate all the ideas I had at the meeting into his work because he was allowed to be present and listen to what I had to contribute. An obvious unfair advantage.

This is of course the latest scenario in a bunch of messed up situations where I have done everything right only to be bested at the post.

I have my own lighting kit, camera and all the accessories needed to shoot scenes. I have a great network of contacts whom I have worked with countless times before, but I feel like they would rather I was the assistant to a film student DP than give me the shot at DPing the project myself. Better to still have my experience there to fix something that an inexperienced DP messes up then to let me do it right the first time.

And trust me, it's happened before. I once decided to still first AC a job that I lost to believe it or not a first year film student who had only being studying for a month. He knew what a Redhead was, but didn't know anything else about lighting. Needless to say he realised after the first day that the job was well and truly over his head and he started to leave half way through shooting or wouldn't show up at all. The Director finally turned to me and started talking about what he wanted. Out of a six day shoot, I ended up shooting four of those days without the supposed DP anywhere in sight. But I still got put down as First AC and he still got the DP credit. Just another sad case of me losing out to a student.
 
1. Be a better judge of character - if you have a bad feeling get a contract before throwing ideas into the air. There is a very fine line between making producer excited to work with you and revealing too much that they can (in their mind) take all the ideas and do it themselves.

2. If you worked with them as gaffer or AC you will always be gaffer or AC to them. Period.

3. IT's freaking $500. Don't worry about it. If it was $1500/d job it would be a different story but then you would not run into that scenario because the producer would have too much to loose by NOT hiring a pro.
 
Do you have a reel? I assume you must. Present yourself as a DP. You can discuss the overall look of a film, and reference and give examples from your reel - which you should have readily available, like on an iPad - you say, "yes, I can do it", "here's an example of how I did it, now I could modify it to look like this" - immediately show on the iPad. Don't do shot-lists unless you're hired... I don't know how it's done in Australia, but I would never ask a DP I was interviewing to do a shot list and then compare it to some other DP - that's BS. It's a lot of work and demands a lot of thought and close consultation about what the director wants. A director should be able to hire you based on these four things:

1) Your reputation: are you reliable, do you do quality work, do people like to work with you, are you a primadonna, how fast do you work,

2) Your reel: director will look for examples of the kind of work he's looking for, like if the project demands a lot of night photography, how well do you do skin-tones in harsh daylight etc., can you light when the camera has to move a lot etc.

3) Interview where the director tells you what the project is, what he expects, he evaluates if you have any artistic feel for his project and if he'll get along with you

4) Your quote and what you bring with you equipment-wise (or +cost of what you would want to rent), and your schedule and availability.

If the director asks you to do homework without hiring you, he's not someone you should deal with, unless you're talking about a world-famous director and you're trying to establish a great contact for future work as a DP. If it's just a job like a $500 job, it's total BS to ask for any homework.

This is important: the director is interviewing and evaluating you, but you are interviewing and evaluating the director and his project:

1) The director's reputation: is this a guy who will further your career? Is he a jerk to work for? Is he clueless technically? Does he have unreasonable demands? Is he a liar and user?

2) The director's reel/work: what kind of work does this guy do, what genre, what quality.

3) Interview: listen to the director - will you get along with him, is he technically competent or will he listen to you, does he have strong ideas of his own, what is the project about, is the shooting style up your alley, is the schedule and workload realistic

4) Pay: how much will he pay for you, will there be a budget for equipment, when do you need to work and how firm is the schedule.

It takes two to tango. Be respectful, friendly, open - but also demand respect; those who demand respect, get it from those whose respect is worth having. You can't demand respect if you don't have respect for yourself - doing unreasonable homework means you don't value your time and worth. If you are being jerked around before hiring, you'll be jerked around after hiring - if it even gets that far. Don't work with jerks - it's not worth it.
 
Thanks for the advice, and I will try to take it all on board and be better prepared for situations like this in the future.

It wasn't like I just started doing the shot list on a whim, the Director clearly said I was on board, he shook my hand as I left and told me to get right on it. That is why I was so taken back when I later found out that it was more of a test or homework as you put it. Never did I think he was going to compare my work to another, and that is why I felt cheated. From that initial meeting I never had any reason to believe that I wasn't hired for the job. Being someone I had worked with before I obviously let down my guard and see now that I should have got it in writing before discussing things further. I guess I know now to be more careful, especially when dealing with people I thought I knew.

But its like Patryk said, I'm probably only ever going to be seen as a Gaffer and First AC to that particular Director.

Though it was never about the money, more of the principle that they wanted me input, only to take it and use it. And I'm waiting for the follow up conversation where they ask me to come on board as an assistant to the DP in some capacity, whether it be as his Gaffer or Camera Assistant.

So thanks again for all your comments, I think I have learnt a valuable lesson from that particular situation. I guess they are going to get what they pay for when choosing an inexperienced film student over an experienced candidate.
 
I thought about it Owen, but that would have been me sinking to their level and just plain childish. I've moved on, what everyone said was right, it wasn't worth my time to dwell on things I have no control over, what's done is done. But just as one door closes another couple open and I've had a few offers to shot other things since then, including one feature film with a full Alexa package and Cooke S4's down in Melbourne. So definitely a step up from shooting on the C300 for a mere $500. So I guess it worked out in the end, cause I wouldn't have been able to agree to this other shoot. Lesson learnt.
 
I'll keep you in mind Jax, though it's still not fully locked in. Further talks with the Producer tomorrow and it's going to come down to their budget and my availability.

Yeah Owen, I was a little thrown when they said that is what the Director had in mind to shoot on because of the look he wants. Though I just hope they still have enough money in the budget for a decent lighting kit. A bit of grip gear wouldn't go astray either.
 
Further development in the story I mentioned. The Director has since had a falling out with the student DP he hired and has turned back to me. I laughed and asked for more money to shoot it.
 
Awesome Box said:
Further development in the story I mentioned. The Director has since had a falling out with the student DP he hired and has turned back to me. I laughed and asked for more money to shoot it.
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And that's how it goes and that's the appropriate response.
 
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