As I start editing our movie which we filmed on an EX1 + Letus Extreme + Nikon Zoom 35-70 2.8, (at 74 EX1 zoom in) I realize it is all a bit soft and grainy. It is not out of focus but definitely I'm concerned about whether this will be okay when projected on a bigh screen or shown on a Full HDTV. Is this sort of setup reliable ? :undecided
Looks all a bit soft to me.
- Thread starter jacotte
- Start date
First of all, when people are complaining about softness they really need to check what kind of setup they used to focus on. The EX1's LCD, good as it is, is no substitute for a proper HD field monitor. Checking proper focus on the GG is critical.
Second is that there should be not any grain as long as the f-stop is kept below f4. Don't confuse grain with noise that results when the camera isn't receiving enough light.
Just as an example, here is a full frame grab shot on an XH-A1 and Letus Extreme on a 85mm f1.2 lens at f5.6. Incredibly sharp but on an EX1 it would be sharper still.
Second is that there should be not any grain as long as the f-stop is kept below f4. Don't confuse grain with noise that results when the camera isn't receiving enough light.
Just as an example, here is a full frame grab shot on an XH-A1 and Letus Extreme on a 85mm f1.2 lens at f5.6. Incredibly sharp but on an EX1 it would be sharper still.
The depth of field is narrow because I left the Nikon at 2.8 throughout the production and I rarely used a prime. So all of this was shot with a zoom. However, correct me if I'm wrong, even if this is a bit soft, it should hold up on a projection or should it not? I do suppose it is sharper than a blown up PAL. Dancer in the dark was shot on DV Pal so this should hold up... won't it? 
Chris Santucci
Veteran
If I may - I'd suggest that viewing an image from a normal viewing distance will offer way less in terms of anxiety about "softness."
Some people seem to overlook the fact that a projected image in a theater is normally viewed from 30 or more feet away while a TV image should be viewed from maybe 5 to 15 feet away depending upon size of the screen.
This is interesting: http://www.dtvcity.com/lcdtv/lcdscreensize.html
Also, I'd suggest that "softness" is nowhere near as bad as lack of resolution in regard to viewing either on a monitor/TV or as a projected image.
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Some people seem to overlook the fact that a projected image in a theater is normally viewed from 30 or more feet away while a TV image should be viewed from maybe 5 to 15 feet away depending upon size of the screen.
This is interesting: http://www.dtvcity.com/lcdtv/lcdscreensize.html
Also, I'd suggest that "softness" is nowhere near as bad as lack of resolution in regard to viewing either on a monitor/TV or as a projected image.
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Chris Santucci
Veteran
At a normal viewing distance, they look absolutely sharp. I see closeups in studio films that are soft. Those examples are not soft.
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Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
There is a loss of high frequency MTF in your images and that is because that you used the EX1 aperture wide open or because of the diffusion that comes from the GG. Huy Lu Image is more artificially sharpened...
Below are images from SGblade in a FF35 setup my relay and a Sony PDW700 as you see is by far more sharp. One of the main reasons is that the GG used was the RR1. If on these shoots we used the RR2 then they would be much softer due to diffusion.
From my experience in DI and film out I can say that your image is ok for theatrical projection and that film projection are not so sharp as we believe...
Below are images from SGblade in a FF35 setup my relay and a Sony PDW700 as you see is by far more sharp. One of the main reasons is that the GG used was the RR1. If on these shoots we used the RR2 then they would be much softer due to diffusion.
From my experience in DI and film out I can say that your image is ok for theatrical projection and that film projection are not so sharp as we believe...
Aperture was mostly wide open on the first shot and probably more closed on the second shot. So it all boils down to the ground glass? Could you explain this RR thing to me? I thought a ground glass was a ground glass and that the bottom line is about spinning vs vibrating. What exactly is the full GG story? Am I correct in saying DSLR cameras will yield sharper images than any of these GG solutions?
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Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
DSLR vs GG solutions... Do you thing the above image has something to be zealous about from a DSLR? I thing is the opposite.
Sharpness is a combination of things, the most crucial of all is the GG and the camera lens or relay lens.
GG's are having different properties depending on the manufacturing process and the materials used. An adapter that can't exchange GG's is tied up to a certain look that is either soft due to diffuse with a bit thicker bokeh and less vignette or sharp with thinner bokeh and more vignette. these are the two extremes.
In the SGblade world the diffused, with thicker bokeh, no vignette and big light loss is the RR2 imaging element. The least diffused, a bit thinner bokeh, some vignette, and most light performing is RR3. The average of all is RR1. So depending on the aesthetics and the application you can change GG's.
To be able to exchange GG's you have to select an adapter that can do that. SGblade is one of them.
As for the camera lens, I will tell it for the thousand time, all the lenses are performing when they are stopped down at least a stop (or 2) from the alleged starting aperture. If you go wide open, sometimes you have an alarming CA so you are forced to stop down, some other times you have soft image, the second is the biggest trap because unless you have a full resolution (pixel for pixel) display you can't see that difference and judge. Sometimes you have both...
Another trap is that because we don't use lenses from a certain manufacture (like Zeiss ZF) and we use a Canon and then a Tokina, one 30 years old the other 10 years old, these lenses have slight differences on the backfocal distances so if you adjust your mount with a lens that has a big tolerance this adjustment might not be ok for all the rest of the lenses...
That is another factor that affect the sharpness.
Sharpness is a combination of things, the most crucial of all is the GG and the camera lens or relay lens.
GG's are having different properties depending on the manufacturing process and the materials used. An adapter that can't exchange GG's is tied up to a certain look that is either soft due to diffuse with a bit thicker bokeh and less vignette or sharp with thinner bokeh and more vignette. these are the two extremes.
In the SGblade world the diffused, with thicker bokeh, no vignette and big light loss is the RR2 imaging element. The least diffused, a bit thinner bokeh, some vignette, and most light performing is RR3. The average of all is RR1. So depending on the aesthetics and the application you can change GG's.
To be able to exchange GG's you have to select an adapter that can do that. SGblade is one of them.
As for the camera lens, I will tell it for the thousand time, all the lenses are performing when they are stopped down at least a stop (or 2) from the alleged starting aperture. If you go wide open, sometimes you have an alarming CA so you are forced to stop down, some other times you have soft image, the second is the biggest trap because unless you have a full resolution (pixel for pixel) display you can't see that difference and judge. Sometimes you have both...
Another trap is that because we don't use lenses from a certain manufacture (like Zeiss ZF) and we use a Canon and then a Tokina, one 30 years old the other 10 years old, these lenses have slight differences on the backfocal distances so if you adjust your mount with a lens that has a big tolerance this adjustment might not be ok for all the rest of the lenses...
That is another factor that affect the sharpness.
Chris Santucci
Veteran
Shooting wide open will result in less sharpness than stopped down one or two stops. Stopping down A LOT generally results in less sharpness.
You will always lose sharpness when shooting off a groundglass. Any groundglass.
I'm not convinced that more sharpness is possible with DSLR footage as opposed to lens adapter footage in part because of line skipping of the DSLR.
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Not sure what you mean here. There was no sharpening either in the camera or in post as I don't use those options. jacotte's grabs are softer simply because it wasn't focused correctly and he shot wide open. Most of my shots are done between f4 and f5.6 and focused on an HD monitor which is why it's so sharp.
And with due respect, of course your grabs would be sharper since you're shooting on a $30,000 camera, not necessarily because of the Letus.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
In all honesty Jacotte, You are incredibly fortunate that people on these boards are so generous with their knowledge that they still bother to help you out. I've been consistently amazed by how little research you've done on this equipment before using the gear in the first place (esp on a feature) and making sweeping, ill informed and often rude pronouncements on the value of it. You've been insulting this whole discussion group.
Because of that I have no faith in how you set up your adapter, whether you were focusing properly, what kind of detail levels you use, what your f stops your backfocus settings etc.. I also don't have the patience to want to help out and answers questions that a more humble person might have figured out long ago or that I would have been to happy to help with. You're questions indicate that you still don't know very much about these things. Try searching through old discussions.
Sorry - just my 2 cents.
Evangelos - very sharp looking frame grabs from the relay - very exciting.
Lenny Levy
Because of that I have no faith in how you set up your adapter, whether you were focusing properly, what kind of detail levels you use, what your f stops your backfocus settings etc.. I also don't have the patience to want to help out and answers questions that a more humble person might have figured out long ago or that I would have been to happy to help with. You're questions indicate that you still don't know very much about these things. Try searching through old discussions.
Sorry - just my 2 cents.
Evangelos - very sharp looking frame grabs from the relay - very exciting.
Lenny Levy