HansSteinert
Well-known member
Figured there was a catch.
How hot are Lowel DP lights? I'm not talking about touching it... I'm talking about how much it heats the set.
Looking to make a first purchase on film lighting equipment with a 1200 dollar budget
- Thread starter HansSteinert
- Start date
Figured there was a catch.
How hot are Lowel DP lights? I'm not talking about touching it... I'm talking about how much it heats the set.
Don't listen to the power and brightness nonsense, just look at the wide shots of all of the network interviews. All of them are being lit by led's now. If you've got to work on location and your not lighting up a huge area, look at flos or leds. Just ask a real gaffer what everyone is using first off the truck now. Couple of kinos and an led back kicker.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Here's some thoughts:
1). Its hard to find any light that does it all. If you have limited budget decide what you'll be doing most of the time and what you'll therefore be needing the most based on criteria of which lighting fulfills that.
2). If you'll be using mostly soft lighting (i.e. diffused, flattering, undefined shadows, but limited throw) tungsten in softbox or fluorescent if you need less heat and more efficient. Something like a 6x55w flo would be about same output as a tungsten 1300w in softbox. Any tungsten is going to put out a lot of heat both at the fixture and the beam of light has infrared in it so is also very hot--how much heat is a function of how much wattage the unit is. A 650w is very hot, a 1000w is hotter, etc. That's about the simplest way to explain it. LEDs can also be used for soft lighting (with added diffusion) as well but other considerations come into play--you'd consider all the criteria I have here to decide which one does the job the best.
3). If you'll be using mostly hard lighting (i.e. longer throw) with good and well-defined shadows (single shadow) then that would be tungsten or HMI in a fresnel or par however IMO pars are less good for single shadows than fresnels are. In other words, barndoors work very well for cutting down the light to a square or rectangle and you can put a cucaloris on the fixture to project a pattern. Only a single point source hard light can do that well like a fresnel or par. Pars are most efficient though due to their mirror / bulb config. HMI pars are the best overall for efficiency and light output.
4). If color rendering is most important, then you'd choose HMI, fluorescent or tungsten. Which one of those two maybe based on whether you need hard light or soft light primarily. However one other caveat on tungsten and color rendering: While its true that the effective CRI of tungsten is 98 or so, today's digital cameras are for the most part optimized for daylight color temperature light. Therefore tungsten may not necessarily provide the best colors given its lack of blue. People using good quality 55w or 4 foot bulbs aren't reporting color rendering issues these days.
5). If battery use is most important then its LEDs hands down. They also tend to be the most compact considering their size and weight next to the amount of light they put out. Color rendering is not as bad as many make it out to be but certainly not as good as the better fluorescents, HMI or tungsten. The reason I know this is my own use and also our customers use. They will often buy one and love the results and buy more units afterwards. As far as type of light, an LED tends to be about midway between a flo and a fresnel in terms of throw so its a quality of light somewhere between a hard and soft light. It can do about 80% of what a fresnel is often used for which may be mostly flooding an area with light. The other 20% of uses would normally depend upon good shadows and LEDs have vague or undefined multiple shadows. Flos also have vague shadows but a bit different look.
6). CDM is a choice considered against HMI. They are similar in terms of light effect and throw. The main issue with it is time to restart after turning them off, you'll most often have to wait about 5 minutes before re-lighting. This has to do with the cool down of the bulb. Hot restart is a feature of HMIs and if that's the primary consideration (restart time) then you'd choose an HMI. HMIs are more expensive than CDM units though as the hot restart feature adds quite a bit of complexity to the circuitry of the ballast.
7). Color temperature. If you're mainly doing things with daylight then you'd pick flos, HMI, CDM, LEDs or fluorescent. Tungsten gelled up to daylight is a disaster in terms of light output and efficiency. I'm not sure why someone would pick tungsten if they have no legacy of tungsten fixtures and they are mainly using digital motion or still cameras. Most people these days, if they have no fixtures and just starting out are going daylight range.
We carry all these options at Cool Lights USA. You can drop us a note at info@coollights.biz if you have any questions.
1). Its hard to find any light that does it all. If you have limited budget decide what you'll be doing most of the time and what you'll therefore be needing the most based on criteria of which lighting fulfills that.
2). If you'll be using mostly soft lighting (i.e. diffused, flattering, undefined shadows, but limited throw) tungsten in softbox or fluorescent if you need less heat and more efficient. Something like a 6x55w flo would be about same output as a tungsten 1300w in softbox. Any tungsten is going to put out a lot of heat both at the fixture and the beam of light has infrared in it so is also very hot--how much heat is a function of how much wattage the unit is. A 650w is very hot, a 1000w is hotter, etc. That's about the simplest way to explain it. LEDs can also be used for soft lighting (with added diffusion) as well but other considerations come into play--you'd consider all the criteria I have here to decide which one does the job the best.
3). If you'll be using mostly hard lighting (i.e. longer throw) with good and well-defined shadows (single shadow) then that would be tungsten or HMI in a fresnel or par however IMO pars are less good for single shadows than fresnels are. In other words, barndoors work very well for cutting down the light to a square or rectangle and you can put a cucaloris on the fixture to project a pattern. Only a single point source hard light can do that well like a fresnel or par. Pars are most efficient though due to their mirror / bulb config. HMI pars are the best overall for efficiency and light output.
4). If color rendering is most important, then you'd choose HMI, fluorescent or tungsten. Which one of those two maybe based on whether you need hard light or soft light primarily. However one other caveat on tungsten and color rendering: While its true that the effective CRI of tungsten is 98 or so, today's digital cameras are for the most part optimized for daylight color temperature light. Therefore tungsten may not necessarily provide the best colors given its lack of blue. People using good quality 55w or 4 foot bulbs aren't reporting color rendering issues these days.
5). If battery use is most important then its LEDs hands down. They also tend to be the most compact considering their size and weight next to the amount of light they put out. Color rendering is not as bad as many make it out to be but certainly not as good as the better fluorescents, HMI or tungsten. The reason I know this is my own use and also our customers use. They will often buy one and love the results and buy more units afterwards. As far as type of light, an LED tends to be about midway between a flo and a fresnel in terms of throw so its a quality of light somewhere between a hard and soft light. It can do about 80% of what a fresnel is often used for which may be mostly flooding an area with light. The other 20% of uses would normally depend upon good shadows and LEDs have vague or undefined multiple shadows. Flos also have vague shadows but a bit different look.
6). CDM is a choice considered against HMI. They are similar in terms of light effect and throw. The main issue with it is time to restart after turning them off, you'll most often have to wait about 5 minutes before re-lighting. This has to do with the cool down of the bulb. Hot restart is a feature of HMIs and if that's the primary consideration (restart time) then you'd choose an HMI. HMIs are more expensive than CDM units though as the hot restart feature adds quite a bit of complexity to the circuitry of the ballast.
7). Color temperature. If you're mainly doing things with daylight then you'd pick flos, HMI, CDM, LEDs or fluorescent. Tungsten gelled up to daylight is a disaster in terms of light output and efficiency. I'm not sure why someone would pick tungsten if they have no legacy of tungsten fixtures and they are mainly using digital motion or still cameras. Most people these days, if they have no fixtures and just starting out are going daylight range.
We carry all these options at Cool Lights USA. You can drop us a note at info@coollights.biz if you have any questions.
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Paul Hudson
Vacuum Tube Member
I have a truck full of Kino's, HMI's and several LED's and can speak to the OP's original question that involved a budget of $1200. To get Flo's or LED's to last anywhere close to as long as an old school tungsten you will A - have to spend a lot of cash on the units and B - protect them like eggs.
Flo's and LED's are great lights, I love them, but they are relatively delicate as compared to an old Mole. Sure, you can buy a couple of four bank Kino's (I have six) and they will last but they will cost twice what the OP has budgeted. Same with high end LED's. So if you are going to get LED's or Flo's buy quality and buy hard flight cases and you will be fine but you will spend way more than the $1200 the OP has budgeted. If you don't have this kind of cash stick with the battle tested, steel, tungsten instruments...They will last a lifetime.
Flo's and LED's are great lights, I love them, but they are relatively delicate as compared to an old Mole. Sure, you can buy a couple of four bank Kino's (I have six) and they will last but they will cost twice what the OP has budgeted. Same with high end LED's. So if you are going to get LED's or Flo's buy quality and buy hard flight cases and you will be fine but you will spend way more than the $1200 the OP has budgeted. If you don't have this kind of cash stick with the battle tested, steel, tungsten instruments...They will last a lifetime.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
They are hot, but manageable, what I usually do is not to let them on if not in use, don't use light boxes but light panels, snoots, umbrellas etc
this shot was made with a DP and a Dichroic filter, http://video.felipehenao.com/fhintro.html
This other one for cosmetics DP and Omni, http://video.felipehenao.com/strongmach_pub.html
I use Leds for on camera lighting, Something I love about Lowel kit also is the build quality, I've travel with them in the most difficult situations
and no a scratch
RyanT
Veteran
I've used the cool lights before and I just personally wouldn't spend my money on them. I'd rather save up for a kino and just rent until then if I really wanted a florescent fixture. If your a hobbyist they're a great buy, but if I spend a little extra dough for the professional option and as a result I get rentals off my kit, I'm going to go with that. Everyone needs a tungsten package as well, and having one to rent out to whomever at a moments notice is never a bad thing.
If you do want your tungsten light to be softer, it doesn't take a softbox, it just takes 1 4x4 frame and you're there. Sure that's going to cost you 50 bucks, but between the cash saved with the tungsten fixture, the versatility of it, and not to mention the fact that you don't have to deal with subpar gear, I think it's well worth it.
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Michael Carter
Veteran
I don't consider my flo's to be "subpar gear". They're my go-to's quite often. Far as durability, I'm not interested in renting my gear out (since I'm constantly shooting effects plates or tests in addition to main gigs) and I'd guess a biax flo is a bit more delicate than a 650 fresnel - but it's not like they have to be babied (a decent case is pretty necessary vs. sticking fresnels in a milk crate). I don't own the cool lights brand, but I've spent under $200 on twin-biax and under $300 on quads, and they're good, tough lights (and I had 15 years shooting location fashion before the DVX came on the scene... Speedotron is my standard of toughness, and that's a pretty high standard).
Indeed you can soften a fresnel or redhead with a 4x4 - but in many softbox scenarios, you only want light from the front - all that black fabric isn't there for show, it's to keep the rest of the set dark.
Richard's long post above covers a lot of ground, and the digital rendering of tungsten (especially with DSLRs in my work) is pretty massive - I simply got tired of fighting the muddiness that's easy to get in the tungsten settings. (I do really like tungsten fixtures as rim lights in daylight balance, maybe with a 1/4 CTB on 'em to tone it down).
But man... a quad biax vs. a 1k tungsten - that is some serious, serious heat difference (OK, I shoot in Texas, hot enough already down here).
Richard also mentions the cold-start CDM stuff - I actually have a few of those Alzo HIDs, and they're decent... but sticking their bulb/ballast combo in an old fresnel (got one) or a lantern setup - day-um! Nice light!
And again, I have been deeply impressed by the big 85 and 100 watt flo bulbs - amazing output, beautiful light, killer for china or lantern setups, forty bucks a bulb. I made some killer DIY rigs with those things. And I want more, more, more. Can't say enough for situations you need to fill a large area with soft daylight.
So, sounds like we're in mac vs. PC territory here; I'll end my thoughts with the strong suggestion that first-light-kit buyers take a serious look at flo's. And I shot still fashion for a decade with a large tungsten rig - when everyone else was strictly strobes, I was sticking CTO on my heads to match my hot lights. But the recent developments in daylight fixtures are game changers IMHO.
Indeed you can soften a fresnel or redhead with a 4x4 - but in many softbox scenarios, you only want light from the front - all that black fabric isn't there for show, it's to keep the rest of the set dark.
Richard's long post above covers a lot of ground, and the digital rendering of tungsten (especially with DSLRs in my work) is pretty massive - I simply got tired of fighting the muddiness that's easy to get in the tungsten settings. (I do really like tungsten fixtures as rim lights in daylight balance, maybe with a 1/4 CTB on 'em to tone it down).
But man... a quad biax vs. a 1k tungsten - that is some serious, serious heat difference (OK, I shoot in Texas, hot enough already down here).
Richard also mentions the cold-start CDM stuff - I actually have a few of those Alzo HIDs, and they're decent... but sticking their bulb/ballast combo in an old fresnel (got one) or a lantern setup - day-um! Nice light!
And again, I have been deeply impressed by the big 85 and 100 watt flo bulbs - amazing output, beautiful light, killer for china or lantern setups, forty bucks a bulb. I made some killer DIY rigs with those things. And I want more, more, more. Can't say enough for situations you need to fill a large area with soft daylight.
So, sounds like we're in mac vs. PC territory here; I'll end my thoughts with the strong suggestion that first-light-kit buyers take a serious look at flo's. And I shot still fashion for a decade with a large tungsten rig - when everyone else was strictly strobes, I was sticking CTO on my heads to match my hot lights. But the recent developments in daylight fixtures are game changers IMHO.
RyanT
Veteran
Probably something like this.
http://www.google.com/products/cata...50727145&ei=YPQyTvioAo6MjQSQpY0K&ved=0CBEQ8gI
They actually are pretty cool if you need a soft daylight fixture on the cheap, but I've seen them go super wonky in terms of color temp over time. Wouldn't be a bad idea to test them with a color meter every once in a while, just like you would with HMI's.
I think what it is Michael is the difference between what you expect to do with your gear and what mostly what you want with it down the line. Everything I buy I expect to keep it for pretty much ever, and I'm slowly trying to build up at least a 1 ton package. I work a lot as a gaffer, so I try and buy things that I could bring on the show with me to make a few extra bucks. If I said I had some florescent fixtures and then showed up with anything but kino's, I'd get some weird looks.
I have friends who have a lot of this gear already, so if I really need a kino flo I can pull a favor or two and get one. Even if that doesn't work there are rentals nearby that'll let me out the door with a kino for a good deal.
Either way, I've just stopped trying to buy things that are just for the time being, they usually annoy the crap out of me and end up broken before I have enough money to buy the right stuff. I know a lot of this stuff is super expensive, but if you play your cards right and rent your gear out from time to time, you can somehow end up making a little profit off it.
http://www.google.com/products/cata...50727145&ei=YPQyTvioAo6MjQSQpY0K&ved=0CBEQ8gI
They actually are pretty cool if you need a soft daylight fixture on the cheap, but I've seen them go super wonky in terms of color temp over time. Wouldn't be a bad idea to test them with a color meter every once in a while, just like you would with HMI's.
I think what it is Michael is the difference between what you expect to do with your gear and what mostly what you want with it down the line. Everything I buy I expect to keep it for pretty much ever, and I'm slowly trying to build up at least a 1 ton package. I work a lot as a gaffer, so I try and buy things that I could bring on the show with me to make a few extra bucks. If I said I had some florescent fixtures and then showed up with anything but kino's, I'd get some weird looks.
I have friends who have a lot of this gear already, so if I really need a kino flo I can pull a favor or two and get one. Even if that doesn't work there are rentals nearby that'll let me out the door with a kino for a good deal.
Either way, I've just stopped trying to buy things that are just for the time being, they usually annoy the crap out of me and end up broken before I have enough money to buy the right stuff. I know a lot of this stuff is super expensive, but if you play your cards right and rent your gear out from time to time, you can somehow end up making a little profit off it.
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Michael Carter
Veteran
The flo bulbs - different than the link above, they have really giant ballast/base sections - here's one from eBay:
Prices range from $30-60, depending on wattage - thing is, they seem to kick out way more light per watt than the biax flos; a twin biax (110 watts total) is usually sold as "500 watt tungsten equivalent" - an 85 watt as above just seems to really kick out more lumens. I had some plywood scraps and made some (really kind of nice) holders for these things using china ball sockets, put yokes and spuds on 'em for a 20' greenscreen shoot and they really were impressive. Working on finding a sewing-granny to make me some hanging square or tube lanterns for these things. Im seriously psyched by the possibilities.
& Ryan, I agree on the gear budget philosophy - thing is, 90% of what I shoot I also write, storyboard and direct (and often am doing all the print and web stuff for the client) - so I tend to buy for the sort of "looks" I am going for at a given time. The bulk of my tungsten gear I've owned for over 15 years; same with most stands, grip, flags, etc. We'll see how the flo's hold up. Next up for me will likely be one of Richard's 2k HMIs for when I need a light cannon.
I am waiting for talent to show up right now; got several biax banks waiting with thin, unbleached muslin pinned to the doors. Looks really pretty, and they take up so little space - got 'em almost flat against a wall. Just need to find (or dye) something more like 1/4 stop that warm color (the muslin seems about a full stop). I'm not a tungsten hater - I need to shoot some really sharp smoke plates soon, and a 1K Leko & flags is just the ticket to "pick out" a thin slice of smoke.
Just recalled one more flo benefit... you can diffuse them with the tissue sheets that come with your gels... don't try that with a 500k tungsten...
Prices range from $30-60, depending on wattage - thing is, they seem to kick out way more light per watt than the biax flos; a twin biax (110 watts total) is usually sold as "500 watt tungsten equivalent" - an 85 watt as above just seems to really kick out more lumens. I had some plywood scraps and made some (really kind of nice) holders for these things using china ball sockets, put yokes and spuds on 'em for a 20' greenscreen shoot and they really were impressive. Working on finding a sewing-granny to make me some hanging square or tube lanterns for these things. Im seriously psyched by the possibilities.
& Ryan, I agree on the gear budget philosophy - thing is, 90% of what I shoot I also write, storyboard and direct (and often am doing all the print and web stuff for the client) - so I tend to buy for the sort of "looks" I am going for at a given time. The bulk of my tungsten gear I've owned for over 15 years; same with most stands, grip, flags, etc. We'll see how the flo's hold up. Next up for me will likely be one of Richard's 2k HMIs for when I need a light cannon.
I am waiting for talent to show up right now; got several biax banks waiting with thin, unbleached muslin pinned to the doors. Looks really pretty, and they take up so little space - got 'em almost flat against a wall. Just need to find (or dye) something more like 1/4 stop that warm color (the muslin seems about a full stop). I'm not a tungsten hater - I need to shoot some really sharp smoke plates soon, and a 1K Leko & flags is just the ticket to "pick out" a thin slice of smoke.
Just recalled one more flo benefit... you can diffuse them with the tissue sheets that come with your gels... don't try that with a 500k tungsten...
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
Doesn't exist 500K=500.000 watts:grin:
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Felipe Henao
Well-known member
Doesn't exist 500K, you mean 500 watts, that is what gels are for
Michael Carter
Veteran
Well, yes, a 500 watt or .5k tungsten light. Busted by the fast-typing police. And two posts to drive it home.
But really, I like the tissue on the flo's in a pinch.
But really, I like the tissue on the flo's in a pinch.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
Good you like Neon, I personally like Halogen, because of the power, output, color and control, I can handle the heat, also Lowel DP,Omni construction is lovely very strong and small. One thing I don't like about Flo is carrying spare Neon tubes,output not either the fixture size, I rather have for those times when you want to move light weight a small kit of Led lights, but for my taste not comparable with a proper Halogen kit.
Probably, you have different prioritys as far as your lighting kit.
Felipe, compact fluorescents are small globes and last longer than halogens. Both technologies are good.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
Lowel rifa could be an option : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/572247-REG/Lowel_LC_95XDLBZ_Rifa_55_eXtra_Flo_Kit.html
However the ouput is low with Fluorescent compared to halogen, That is something good about Rifa you can use both.
Despite of Rifa's versatility, I rather use My DP, Omni option and Leds are a great alternative when brightness can be handle.
Take a look a this set ups are very interesting :http://www.lowel.com/edu/lesson_blender.html.
Hey I just noticed that Rifa is a fixture I'm probably missing. I'll think about it Thanks Slondon