Looking to buy my first Audio field mixer:

S

szimmer

Well-known member
Hello,

I am researching on which audio field mixer I should buy.

I do videos with my Panasonic HMC-150. I have two mics:

Countryman B3 - omnidirectional (lav mic)
Sennheiser EW112-p G3 (wireless lav mic)

Though I like my HMC-150 a lot, I was never very impressed with the sound quality. The interviews and narrations I do had average sound but I want to take it to the next level.

After reading "The Shut Up and Shoot Documentary Guide", I quickly learned that having a good audio mixer is essential to getting good quality sound.

So after reading various forums, everyone seems to love the SoundDevices Mixer 302. At $1300 it is a lot of money. It is in my budget but I want to make sure it will make the big difference even with my average mics that I own.

If there is a better mixer out there for an audio beginner like me, I would love to hear some suggestions.

thanks,

Simon
 
What is it you do not like about your audio. If you are still using your camera as an audio recorder I am not sure what a mixer is going to do to better your audio. However, it is possible just explain your issues.
 
Hello,

Thanks for responding.

Yes, I am using my camera as an audio recorder.

I feel my audio has too much background noise. I have adjusted the mic levels on my camera but the audio features are limited. Also when someone is talking that does not have a strong voice, it is difficult to make the voice louder in Avid Media Composer without making the static noise louder too.

Does that make sense?

As I understood, a mixer like the 302 has a Low Cut Filter which can reduce the background noise tremendously.

Simon
 
One more thing ...

Also the mixer would allow me to use gain to make a voice louder. I can adjust that some what on my camera but again the static is enhanced too.

Simon
p.s.
Maybe the 302 is too much? Maybe the Sound Device mixpre is enough?
 
szimmer said:
As I understood, a mixer like the 302 has a Low Cut Filter which can reduce the background noise tremendously.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing about background noise: unless you are in a completely controlled environment where you can ask people not to talk, turn off AC and fridge units, etc., it's always going to be there; furthermore, nothing found on a mixer can do anything to eliminate it. A low-cut is great for things that create low-end rumble (distant highways, distant AC units, etc.), but they won't do anything for frequencies above, say, 80Hz (depending on the mixer's low-cut frequency).

Other factors that help minimize background noise: proper mic choice for the environment, and proper mic placement.

A mixer is a handy tool, especially if you need to record three mics to two channels. It also allows you to send line-level signal to the camera which will either bypass the camera's pre-amps or at least minimize their gain stage (depends on the camera's pre-amp design). Panasonic, however, has been putting remarkably good pre-amps into their cameras, so I have to agree with Mr. Hudson that a mixer may not be your solution.

You've cited two types of noise here as well, almost interchangeably: background noise and hiss. Which is your biggest issue, and is there any way you could post a sample so we can hear what you're hearing?
 
Hello,

That is what I keep hearing. Avoid the pre-amps of the camera which I think is also mentioned in the book I mentioned above.

But after reading more about the 302, I wonder if it may be "too" much for an audio beginner like me.

Maybe the Sound Device Mixpre is enough at $665.00.

But everyone keeps raving about the 302 which makes this decision difficult.

Simon
 
Read the manuals of both mixers. You will see there are huge differences in flexibility. That is how I made my descision years ago and have not looked back.

Nice thing about the mix pre is that you can get 90% of your money back when you sell it later (to get the 302 :)) so it is not a big risk.
 
For me, using the 302 in front of a cam gives you features wouldn't have going straight to cam: better gain control, better limiters, better display, better pres, better monitoring, third mic mix, etc, etc. A cam has pots to control audio, but it is difficult to fiddle them while shooting and that's about all you get. If you are shooting from a tripod, the mixer can be set on a shelf attached to the tripod. I have been doing this even when shooting alone and it is beginning to pay off in better audio. If you are moving around, you will need at minimum one more person to assist, so at that point your audio becomes more complicated and or expensive.

In your first post, you indicated that you were using lavs only. Have you tried other types of mics to improve your audio. Lavs have their place, but if you can go with a shotgun or hyper (depending on conditions) on a boom, your audio will usually improve. Placement is key also. The last two things I mentioned will be as important as adding a mixer.

Grant
 
Steve House said:
Just FYI - the background hiss on this clip is easliy removed with a noise reduction tool like Sony's Noise Reduction tool in Sound Forge or Iztope's Rx.
Click to expand...

Hello Steve,

I have heard that before but I downloaded the trial version of Sony's noise reduction software and yes it removed the background noise but it also distorted the actual voice. I get the same results in Soundbooth CS5 which has similar tools.

If you have Sony's noise reduction tool, could you run my sound sample on your program and try it out. Maybe I was not using it correctly, that is possible.

Otherwise, I agree maybe I need to invest in another type of microphone to get better results. Maybe a Mixpre with a better microphone for narration would make more sense.

Simon
 
szimmer said:
Hello Steve,

I have heard that before but I downloaded the trial version of Sony's noise reduction software and yes it removed the background noise but it also distorted the actual voice. I get the same results in Soundbooth CS5 which has similar tools.

If you have Sony's noise reduction tool, could you run my sound sample on your program and try it out. Maybe I was not using it correctly, that is possible.

Otherwise, I agree maybe I need to invest in another type of microphone to get better results. Maybe a Mixpre with a better microphone for narration would make more sense.

Simon
Click to expand...

PM sent.
 
Your mics and their proper positioning have more to do with better sound as others have mentioned, the Panasonic HD cameras are being built these days with decent pre-amps.

To illustrate the point, here is a video test where I feed the same style large diaphragm condenser mic through a mixer, and direct to the Pansonic HPX170 camera. See if you can hear a difference with a $500 SignVideo ENG44 mixer vs w/out it.

 
The other thing to keep in mind is that even if you go to the mixer, or use the internal mic pre-amps, this does nothing for the A/D converter noise inside the camera, which can also add quite a bit of noise.

That said, we use a HVX200 with a Rode shotgun mic (NG-2 I believe) and with some lav mics and we are totally happy with the quality. For us, switching between different mics allowed us to find the best solution. I agree that the controls on a lot of these cameras are not ideal, but for us, we found the cost of the mixer we just added to what we spent on a new mic would be better spent, and for this camera, especially with the lav mics, was clean enough for us. Likewise, in my experience, the ambience you are going to hear around the locations is A LOT higher than the pre-amp noise.

The only time I've actually had to do something different is when I wanted to record ambience like birds chirping and stuff. I ended up going with the Sony PCM-D50 (as opposed to the zoom or other varieties) because I was purposely recording stuff that was at such a low volume already that gained up you could hear the converter & gain stage noise. This is the only time I use this device though, as actors are typically loud enough to get the separation between what they are saying and ambience behind them.

Also, as mentioned, a low cut filter is not going to get rid of your hiss. Most hiss is across the whole spectrum, so you just cut out the lower frequencies. It's for rumble, especially like caused from a floppy cable off the mic or any other thing. Many mic's also have a low cut filter on them, but honestly, you can do that in most with no determent to the audio. That sort of thing is EASY to clean up.

Do you have the ability to test different mics with your camera?
 
Good information.

So half say go for the 302 and the other half seems to be for a different type of microphone. In the end, both groups are probably right.

hmmm!

So now I am not sure what to do. ;)

lol!

Simon
 
Szimmer,

As much as I am a fan and advocate of using a mixer when possible, I would sort out your mic situation first; try something besides the lavs to see if your audio improves. That was the point of the thread right?

Suggestion: rent a couple of different mics, work on technique, and see what that does for you. You can read the stickies to start and figure what might work for your shooting needs. There are some good comparison articles available.

For around the same price as a 302, you could get a decent shotgun with blimp, a decent hyper, and a pole. Though a mixer is part of any serious kit, adding a few mics and getting away from the lavs except when you need them is probably a better first step.

Grant
 
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