Looking for versatile camera

S

scottfs

Well-known member
I've been writing scripts and doing production sound for many other's film. I want to do some filming myself, but my consumer miniDV Canon isn't going to cut it.

I am going to be doing about 50-50 documentaries, and short fiction films. So I'm going to be shooting in low light, exterior and interior. I want the best film look, and I want long recording times, slow motion, and easy to break down, transport and set up.

Budget for camera and lens and required accessories is about $3,500.

Any suggestions?
 
scottfs said:
I've been writing scripts and doing production sound for many other's film. I want to do some filming myself, but my consumer miniDV Canon isn't going to cut it.

I am going to be doing about 50-50 documentaries, and short fiction films. So I'm going to be shooting in low light, exterior and interior. I want the best film look, and I want long recording times, slow motion, and easy to break down, transport and set up.

Budget for camera and lens and required accessories is about $3,500.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
How much 'slo motion' do you want? 60fps? 120fps? 240fps. Do you want 4K or is HD enough?
When you say 'film look' what do you mean, sensor size, frame rate or something else? Do you
want small size/DSLR or cinema cam? Internal ND? XLR inputs?
GH4 does up to 96fps. FS700 does up to 240fps. C100 MkII does 60fps. Blackmagic has some cameras
(earlier cinema camera and pocket camera) in this price range as well.
 
If it were me, I would produce some of my short film scripts. Interview DPs and find out what they shoot with and why. Then hire one and be his assistant during the shoot, to learn about his gear and his process. See how the results turn out, and use that info to help inform my decision on what to buy.
 
scottfs said:
So I'm going to be shooting in low light, exterior and interior. I want the best film look...
Click to expand...

HD and 4K cameras tend to have resolution problems when used in actual low-light conditions. Not all, of course -- the larger the glass, the more light it lets in, so the better it functions in low light, typically. But the rule of thumb seems to be that the more megapixels you have, the more light you need in order to get a sharp image. This isn't a problem in most daylight situations, but can become a major issue when shooting in low light.

With documentaries, a certain amount of graininess is acceptable, almost expected. But if you're shooting narrative, the best thing you can do to get sharp images is to throw a lot of light on the scene -- even it it's supposed to LOOK dark. Shooting in natural light, in a low-light situation, is probably not going to give you the results you want.

When you say you want "the best film look", I assume what you mean is that you want your narratives to look like 'real' movies, not like videos. Aside from shooting progressive and 24fps, what makes narratives LOOK like 'film' is usually a combination of expert lighting and expert camera work, rather than the camera itself. With an excellent lighting person, you could probably shoot things on your consumer MiniDV camcorder that would look a lot like 'film'. Even more so with a pro camera.

Good luck!
 
One other thing to think about is editing. If you go with a 4K camera, it's going to need a much more robust computer to edit the footage in 4K, as opposed to what would be needed to edit 1080p. Of course, most 4K cameras give you the option to shoot in 1080p HD, so you could do that for awhile and upgrade your editing gear to handle 4K at a later time.
 
Also, many -- maybe most, maybe ALL in your price range -- DSLRs do not have motorized zoom function. So if you want to do a shot while zooming in or out, you will have to physically turn the zoom ring on the lens, which can easily cause unwanted camera movement as well as non-smooth zoom performance. That's one advantage of a camcorder over a DSLR.

On the other hand, if you want multiple lenses then you may not find a camcorder in your price range which has interchangeable lens capability. DSLRs typically do, of course.

And what about sound capture? Many camcorders have XLR inputs, but DSLRs don't. Most do have a mini jack for mic input, but they are not renowned for their audio quality. You can always record to a separate audio recorder, of course -- but that may complicate any "run-and-gun" documentary work you want to do.

Many things to consider...
 
Thanks for your input.

I do want XLR inputs if possible. I am a production sound recordist, so I do have all the sound equipment I need, but if I'm going to be doing some stuff myself, I would like to make it as easy as possible on myself.

I have done some oral histories, and I did three-point lighting as well as just natural light. The results were fine.

I do have some scripts to shoot, and I will need at least a small crew, five at least. I can hire a DP. But I do want to shoot on my own, that would be birds in flight.

Sensor size is important for the bird shots. My consumer camcorder is 1/6 inch, and the flying crows looked like sperm chasing an egg! Not the look I wanted. Crows fly to their urban roosts at dusk, so low-light capability is very important. Also, at least 60 fps would be great for some slo-mo shots of the birds.

I think I need a Ursa 4.6k, ha, ha, but way out of my price range. I'm going to start with a cheaper camera, and see how it goes. I'm happy with HD, to be honest, and I've sold gear and re-couped some of my costs that way, so I'm not panicking about being out all that money.

I've set up a spreadsheet with all I'm looking for in my price range. Just does not exist!

Oh, I also need a good tripod, so that's going to be an additional $750 or so. That's extra, and my current tripod is fine for static shots. A motorized zoom would be nice, obviously, but not mandatory, since crows fly at one elevation when they are circulating around their roost trees.
 
But you intend to shoot more things than just crows circulating around roosting trees, right?

If you want XLR inputs on the camera, then a DSLR is probably out. I mean, you can get converter boxes to convert the XLRs to a stereo mini jack, but again -- DSLRs typically don't have great sound capabilities. So if you want XLR inputs, then probably you want to focus on camcorders rather than DSLRs.

I assume the oral histories you did where the results with natural light were "just fine" were done with your current MiniDV Canon, right? Is it an SD camera or an HDV camera? Either is probably going to be much better in low light than a quality HD camcorder. I was very disappointed in the low light quality when I first got into HD cameras -- both camcorders and DSLRs. To get good resolution in low light using HD costs more. It may be that there's an HD camcorder in your price range that can do a decent job with low light, but I don't know of one. Maybe others here do.

When I say "low light", I'm not talking about dimly-lit nightclubs or back alleys illuminated only by streetlights. Even your living room at night with your lights on can turn out grainy. Our church uses a small Canon HD camcorder to record their Sunday morning services. With daylight coming through the stained glass windows and the overhead lights turned on, no one would think of it as a 'low light' situation -- but I regularly have to apply the Neat Video add-on in Vegas to keep the footage from looking grainy. The more you zoom in, the worse the graininess. So just be aware.

The main reason to talk to and work with DPs who have their own gear is that you get a much better sense of the advantages -- and, more important, the limitations -- of different cameras. It will save you spending money on what seems like the right camera from the specs, then being disappointed by the quality of the images. It's the best way I know of to test drive the gear before you buy.

My first foray into HD was the purchase of a Panasonic HMC40 some years ago. It gave a pretty good image when used outside on a bright, sunny day. But indoors -- day or night -- without supplemental lighting? Verrrrry disappointing. I had come from using a Panasonic DVX100b, and quickly found myself missing the quality of image I got in low light with the DVX.

I still shoot HD, but always with plenty of supplemental lighting when doing anything that's not outdoors in full sun.

This is actually the first film I shot with the HMC40. The indoor shots were well-lit with daylight-balanced tungsten bulbs. https://vimeo.com/85283068
 
Howdy, I just stumbled onto this thread.

Here are a couple of thoughts in the price range you are looking for with some comments:

Panasonic GH4 with the YAGH attachment. This is the only (that I know of) DSLR that does 4k and has phantom power using the YAGH add-on. You can get this combo now for around $1500, then add some MFT lenses, monitor-remote recorder, shoulder mount, follow focus or other kit, and stay within your budget. There are a couple of servo lenses that won't break the bank. Downside, the GH4 is near the end of its production cycle. That doesn't make it a bad cam.

Another option would be a Panny AF-100. This is another cam at the end of its cycle, but that makes it cheap. New ones are under $2000. It would use and need all the same accessories as the GH-4 except for the YAGH.

The new DVX-200 is at the very top of your price range, but has a large sensor and will press many of the buttons you want and is also 4K.

You might also consider the new Panny PX230. It records to a better codec, but in 1080, and has a huge wealth of image control. I have the PX270 which is the same cam with more whistles and bells, and really like it, though it will be somewhat less cinematic. Though with careful camera work, can still be a very decent cam.

I don't know so much about the Sony Cams, and they make so many models it is just silly.

JVC (no laughing) has there new LY-300 which seems like an updated AF-100. Some reports indicate it to be OK, it is 4K with interchangeable lenses.

IMHO, you will be stretching to get all you want for $3500 since if you are starting from zero, there is a lot to buy besides the cam if cinematic is your goal. That is the beauty of the traditionally featured DVX-200 or PX230 or PX270. Open the box, insert battery and media, and shoot. All three have extensive image control. If cinematic is your priority, You might go with the GH4 since all the extras will carry forward to a new cam when you upgrade.

Grant
 
Thanks for all your responses. I may look at a Gh4 and get the adapter kit that has xlr inputs. But that boosts the price of the camera...up and up and up... That puts the camera assembly at...$3000. Gulp! The Canon XC10, which gets mixed reviews is a flat 2k.

I'd probably get the metabones speed booster to go with an $800 Canon lens. And a cage.
 
Gh4's v log does take great images indeed. I'm a big fs700 guy but that seems a bit out of your price range comfort zone kitted out. The a7s takes phenomenonal video as well and if your needs grow you can always unlock it's full potential with an external monitor.

I think for your needs the Gh4 would work great kitted out for your price. If you hold off till the gh5 drops you could save some cash when the 4 is falling in price too.

Just some food for thought
 
Scott,

You did say your cam budget was $3500 right? I have seen the gh4 combo with YAGH for around 1600 new. Add a couple of modest lens option and a few accessories and you're there. Like I said, 3500 will be cutting it close if you want 4k.

A downside of the YAGH unit is it needs external power, so if used, it must be tethered to a battery. Not a big problem if you use a shoulder rig, or a tripod. Hand held, is a little bit problematic.
 
I don't envision shooting handheld, but you never know!

Is the Blackmagic Pocket or similar in the mix? Such a hot line now...
 
I'd say you really need to identify what "run n' gun" means to you.

To me it means shooting events that are not planned, scripted, or controllable. So you need a full-tilt "video" camera with a great EVF, switchable ND, power zoom, stabilization, and so on. But audio for those events is a problem, unless there's one key person you can wire up.

To a lot of (I tend to kneejerk-assume "young, new") people here, "run n' gun" means, like 90% of shooting situations. No tripod, no lights, shoot everything at 1.8 with an on-camera mic. Because they don't have lights, tripods, etc.? (Not trying to be an ass but it's a consistent picture I get). Some people consider "run & gun" a style when, in my mind, it's a situation.

I do narrative stuff, corporate interviews, b-roll and lots of plates for effects and graphics (tracking an app on an iphone in a model's hand, etc). I also have a great client that I shoot events for, and I use a big video camera for those gigs. (And we tend to interview participants, and those people get lit and properly mic'd).

Everything else I do gets a quality hyper on a stand into a recorder with a camera-out to my camera, or a quality lav mic on a good wireless setup - or a boom op manning a recorder.

I've seen very few documentaries that didn't have mic'd interviews (wired or on a stand) and wired-up subjects when moving around. The idea that documentaries can only be shot like events seems like some sort of myth propagated here (unless your doc includes a war or a sports game or a wedding and so on). I'm scratching my head to think of any doc I've seen recently that didn't have good audio and often lighting. And I've had no problems managing audio and video (because I know when I freaking need a sound guy!) (Hint - find a smart musician with a home studio and teach him to boom op. There are a lot of guys out there with good ears who understand gain staging and how recorders work).

As for your original question - personally, I'm really happy with the NX1 and a combo of native lenses and vintage Nikkors, a DR-60D and an AT4053 mic, and an OST 801/Sennhesier wireless rig (and a wired phantom adapter for the OST). I don't deliver 4K, but I shoot it for interviews to reframe and for effects work. 30, 60, and 120 fps? I use those often, they're great for mood, drama, beauty, etc. 30p is great when there's no synched audio, it adds just a hint of gravitas to things without looking "slowmo". I still break out a Nikon D7100 sometimes. A good tripod, a shoulder mount, a steadicam and a van full of lights and grip. And a big Panasonic 1080 camera for events.
 
I'd have to say used fs700 as it seems like the only option that fits your use and doesn't compromise image too much. Also has a lot of expandability. One just sold on here for $2500 which leaves you $1k for a speedbooster and 28-300 and fast 50mm for really low light, which can be done.
 
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