Looking for specific camera replacement

N

n90guy

Member
Hi All,

My company currently has 6 Panasonic HPX 170 cameras that we use as multiple angle work horse cameras shooting high speed vehicle crash tests. We would like to replace them with a 4K solution, but not a rolling shutter. Only thing I am seeing in that general price range is a Black Magic Production camera. Any thoughts or suggestions??

FYI, we have tested many of the new larger sensor cameras like the Sony PXW-Z150 and the Panasonic AG-DVX200 and they have too much rolling shutter for what we are shooting. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated!
 
Sony F55 ? (not FS5)

Is the BM ursa (not ursa mini) global shutter .. it is a horrible big beast that most hate but could fit your need for locked cameras - I think it does 120p
 
F55 is way out of the price range. We paid about $4500 each for the HPX 170 cameras. Have heard too many horror stories about Black Magic products.
 
Ive shot two professional features on BM cameras.

I personally think they are solid.

Yep if you underexpose you can induce problems.

Im not sure there are any globabl shutter cameras 4k cameras apart from the BM in the sub $10g price class.

There is http://www.ioindustries.com you need seperate recorders but they should all synch up

S
 
Wildly varying opinions on the BMD cameras. But my (slightly distant) take is that the issues often come up when shooting outside in less-controlled situations. Inside in your space, perhaps they'd be more reliable. Also, a friend who's pretty cranky about equipment just bought an URSA mini... His take is that the current run of cameras has (at least enough of) the problems shaken out.

BTW--- do you work for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety? Looks like both fun and valuable work.
 
Yeah, at that price range it may be difficult to find global shutter.

All you have is URSA, F-55, and Reds with Motion Mount. There are F-65 (mechanical shutter), Alexa Studio(mechanical shutter) and F-35(CCD chip), in terms of large sensor without rolling shutter.

But what is your price range, and what FPS do you need?

4K, no rolling shutter and high-speed is asking a lot.
 
Olympus OMD EM1 MKII has that 60 fps continuous shooting with an electronic - not to be confused with global - shutter. I've no idea how it could work for a scenario described above but I would audition the camera once it ships at the end of December.
 
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback so far!!

I do work at the IIHS.

I should have mentioned, we are not necessarily looking for high frame rate or large sensor. We are hoping to update our real time cameras to a 4K sloution primarily. The P2 cameras still work, but we are now running all Phantom 4K Flex cameras and Sony FS7 for B-roll.

I was surprised to see the rapid decline of non-rolling shutter cameras at a decent price point suitable for b-Camera documentary style work.
 
n90guy said:
... I was surprised to see the rapid decline of non-rolling shutter cameras at a decent price point suitable for b-Camera documentary style work.
Click to expand...
Global shutter negatively effects the dynamic range of the sensor and, in Canon's case, camera's ability to use its dual pixel auto focus. With the higher frame rate capability of the latest models, the worst case scenario is to shoot at that higher frame rate and then adjust it in post.

And, fortunately, most people don't need to be shooting cars slamming into each other at high speed.
 
Don't know much about this camera, but didn't Panasonic just release Panasonic HC-X1? I'd think that may be the perfect replacement for HPX 170.
 
morgan_moore said:
Ive shot two professional features on BM cameras.

I personally think they are solid.

Yep if you underexpose you can induce problems.

Im not sure there are any globabl shutter cameras 4k cameras apart from the BM in the sub $10g price class.

There is http://www.ioindustries.com you need seperate recorders but they should all synch up

S
Click to expand...

LOL - I think that is the reality - global shutters cost more. I find that the DVX works well for most things, and is an easy camera to operate. It works great for quick shoots and can also produce nice shots if you treat it right. I like the black magic cameras and am considering picking up one in the future. I think if used right, they yield excellent results for their price. I think the BM cameras fill a niche that no one can compete with in that price range.
 
Doesn't the FS700R when paired with the O7Q+ greatly improve CMOS issues? More expensive than HPX 170, yet less than F55 :)
 
n90guy said:
I was surprised to see the rapid decline of non-rolling shutter cameras at a decent price point suitable for b-Camera documentary style work.
Click to expand...

You might be best shopping for a used CCD camera, like the HMC150. Since cameras switched from CCD to CMOS, we haven't had affordable global shutter except for the AJA Cion, Digital Bolex, and a few of the Blackmagic models.

CMOS brought higher frame rates, wider dynamic range, lower power consumption, and cheaper manufacturing (since it's more like other computer chips than CCD was). Sadly it also brought compromised recording of passing cars (or passing posts and trees if you're in a car), jello pans, half-frame camera flashes, fractured lightning bolts, fractal propellors, spiral golf swings, and so forth.

Does it have to cause the hit in dynamic range or expense? There is, for example, the Sony image sensor called the IMX174, which has 12 stops, 120 fps, and global shutter --- it's just that it's 2K and 16mm sized. Or the aforementioned F55, also from Sony, which has everything: 4K, 14 stops, high frame rates, and global shutter --- but it's $30,000. I think that's just Sony's artificial product tiering, though. The sensor does not cost Sony $25,000 per unit. Probably they could stick it in the FS5, charge $500 more (at most!) and make the same profit margin.

I keep thinking that "next" NAB we'll finally break through and have more global-shutter cameras, but it has been about a decade now. I am postponing my re-entry into videomaking at least until there is one (I burned out in 2004 and am now a computer programmer, who knew?). I know it sounds picky: in most situations it's invisible. But I think the same thing when other people talk about 4K. I guess global shutter is my 4K. I think if they just stuck that 16mm sensor in a $2,000 or $3,000 camera it would sell like hotcakes.

Here's to 2017 and hoping for more choices.
 
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Yes the HMC 150 has CCDs and global shutter, but it's similar to what the OP is using now...except it's the AVCHD version instead of P2. And both the HMC150 and HPX170 are sort of low res cameras by today standards. Although, supposedly the HMC150 might be slightly better in 1080 than the DVCPRO resolution of the 170.

I'm a CCD glodal shutter guy as well. I still have 3 HMC 150s. But I've had to embrace rolling shutter cameras like most of us. F55 is not accessible to little guys like me :)
 
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