looking for high quality but small audio recorder

A

ade4all

Veteran
Hi - am looking for a smallish audio recorder to use as a bit bucket using line in from SD mix pre-d. I would also like to use it connected to my Rode lav mic, sometimes as a poor mans radio mic ( i know I wont be able to monitor sound this way but when I'm filming on my own this can be really handy)
I've been using Zoom h1 for this - have been reasonably happy with the results connected to the mix pre-d using its version of 'line' in - but using the zoom and rode lav has given me quite noisey hissy audio.
Is there a decent recorder out there that can handle true line in from the mix pre and has a low enough noise floor to create hiss free recordings when tethered to the Rode lav and can easily fit into someones pocket?
The Sony PCM-M10 has fairly good reviews and is my top choice at the moment, just wondered if there was something same size or possibly slightly smaller that has similar audio quality ? it would need to be a decent step up in quality from the Zoom h1
Any help would be gratefully received.....
 
If you want something the size of an M10 (or smaller), why not go with the M10? The main downsides for use as a bit bucket are lack of an optical input and lack of XLRs, but at that size, price (now just under £160 inc VAT), quality, ease of use and with +4dBv line level input, I don't think there are many rivals. I've found it works well with SD preamps/mixers, and with the Rode Lav, although the latter, of course, has significant self-noise at 25dB-A, like most lavalier mics (so don't expect miracles). Cheers, Roland
 
Please read the stickies first. If your question isn't answered there, then come back for clarification:

The $300 Recorder Question

Also, "bit bucket" does not apply if you're using the analog inputs. A true bit bucket is taking a digital signal in, meaning it's really receiving just the bits and not having to do any of the A/D conversion. The MixPre-D can send out AES/EBU digital from the XLR output.
 
sorry I did read the stickies and a whole headfull of other threads here and across the internet & couldnt find much info on the Sony or other small recorders for my specific use - maybe I have exhausted all the info that is out there and the Sony is the best I can get for my use - just thought I'd ask the experts in case I'd missed a gem - again apologies

thanks for the response Throwback - where can you get m10 for under £160 new?
Was wondering about the optical input - do you know of any recorders that can take advantage of the mix pre-d's digital connection in similar price range?
if not I will go with the m10

regarding the noise from the Rode lav - would the m10 be much better than the ZOoom H1 - if not maybe I should just stick to the Zoom....hmmm
 
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I wouldn't go with Zoom if the pre-amps are at all a concern.

I keep a hand-held recorder in my kit, which is the DR-40. I've fed it line level from a MixPre-D and have gotten clean recordings.
 
You can find heaps of information on all available small recorders at taperssection.com, and they often use them as bit buckets as well.
 
yes been trawling through the epic m10 thread at taperssection, seems to be highly rated
AlexH - the Zoom I have access to is from my work place, does an ok job but agree the pre's are not the best....the Tascam sounds great but seems a bit big for putting in the pocket
thanks for the help everyone
 
I've been using a Sony PCM-M10, Olympus LS-11, and Olympus LS-12 with my MixPre-D over the past year. All of these recorders work great with the MixPre-D, and all have the same -75 dB RMS noise-floor when recording from a LINE level source. ( for convenience I use the MixPre-D TAPE-OUT with a Hosa CMM-103RR Right-Angle Stereo Cable with my recorder tucked into the front pocket of a Porta-Brace MixPre case )

All of these recorders have good sound and battery life...

Olympus LS-11 : 17 hours on 2 AA batteries
Sony PCM-M10 : 30 hours on 2 AA batteries
Olympus LS-12 : 50 hours on 2 AA batteries

...The Sony PCM-M10 has a slight advantage in that it comes with a nice little remote that you can clip on to the strap of your mixer bag. ( I am pretty sure the same sort of thing exists for the Olympus recorders )

The Olympus LS-12 is the cheapest at about $150, the LS-11 has been discontinued, and the Sony PCM-M10 costs about $250.

Audio wise, I think they are all pretty much equivalent, though the MIC pre-amps are better in the Olympus units than the Sony. The Sony gets quite noisy once you get half-way to it's maximum gain ( -49 dB RMS at full gain ), while the Olympus units are better than -70 for their whole range.
 
thankyou Dingo - are you saying then that the Olympus Ls-12 would be better than the sony for using with the RODE Lav due to its pre's - and the same quality line level for use with the Mix pre-d
If so this sounds like the recorder for me assuming it is small enough to fit in a pocket when needed
 
The Olympus LS-12 is pretty small. ( I also have an Olympus LS-7 that I use as a body-pack for lavs, and it's tiny but does not take a LINE level signal )

If you ever plan on using the built-in mics on the LS-12, you might want to opt of the Olympus LS-14 for $50 more, which has a switchable third mic just for low-frequency sounds, and comes with a nice case. ( no case with the LS-12 )
 
thanks, do have cable but will try source some right angled Hosa in the UK
will also check the Olympus for size if I can find it locally
 
I don't think you'll find that the Olympus recorders will improve the sound of the Rode lav (as I said, the 25dB-A mic self noise is going to be your main issue). The LS-12 is attractively cheap, but you might want to check over features (like -6dBv line input level rather than +4dBv, and the lack of an analogue gain level) compared to the M10...Cheers, Roland
 
hmm bummer - it was the noise from the lav I was most hoping to improve - was reasonably happy with the zoom h1 & SD mix pre-d combo.....would the Sony m10 be the same with the Rode lav - is there any recorder that would make the lav sound better than the zoom does or is the lav the main problem in the chain here?
Also how much difference would there be between the LS-12's -6dBv and the Sony m10's +4dBv and the Zoom H1 whatever that be, when connected to line level of mix pre-d? - I'm afraid I'm not fully coherent with the technical aspects to audio - I know what sounds good but not always why......would I notice a big enough difference to justify getting one of these over the Zoom H1? Sorry for all the questions
 
ade4all said:
hmm bummer - it was the noise from the lav I was most hoping to improve
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Can you post a sample of what you consider to be noisy audio from your Rode lav?

I used the Rode lav a few months ago ( my sister owns one ), and it did not seem to by any noisier than my TRAM TR50 or Sanken Cos-11x lavs. ( I had it plugged directly into my Olympus LS-12 recorder )

ade4all said:
How much difference would there be between the LS-12's -6dBv and the Sony m10's +4dBv and the Zoom H1 whatever that be, when connected to line level of mix pre-d?
Click to expand...

I own all three of these recorders and a MixPre-D. I never use the Zoom H1. ( sound is ok, but I hate the controls on this unit )

As for the Olympus LS-12 and the Sony PCM-M10, I've fed LINE level from my MixPre-D and from my Mackie mixers to both of these recorders and never experienced a problem. Both recorders functioned flawlessly.

Same goes for the Olympus LS-11 recorder I currently own, and an Olympus LS-10 recorder I used to own. ( sold it when I bought the LS-11 )

The analog gain control on the PCM-M10 is handy if you are going to ride the levels from the recorder, but I rarely do this. ( I use the MixPre-D for this )
 
Can get a sample together on Monday when I'm back at work - perhaps its the levels on the zoom which creat a bitt of noise - tend to have it about 65for normal voice. When I use the lav straight into my gh3 for example it sounds better - but I have the gh3 at lowest setting of 1.
I presume it is the gain from the zoom as I was told I think by yourself that the h1 actually has a slightly lower noise floor than the gh3.
Thankyou by the way for your patience and offering of much knowledge on many questions I have had regarding audio
 
as has just been said, the Olympus recorders' -6dBv line level isn't a problem with the mixpre-d tape out (-10dBv), but you could well run into issues with the +4dBv line out of this and other preamps/mixers. As for the Rode lav, which I have, this is not especially bad (and i've always found it fine for its intended use) but its self noise is quite high compared to other mics with larger diaphragms: I don't have a zoom h1, but it may be that its self noise is adding to the problem (certainly the impedance seems a poor match):as The Dingo suggests, how about a sample? Cheers, Roland
 
Throwback said:
as has just been said, the Olympus recorders' -6dBv line level isn't a problem with the mixpre-d tape out (-10dBv), but you could well run into issues with the +4dBv line out of this and other preamps/mixers.
Click to expand...

I've never had a problem with the LINE level from the XLR sockets of my Sound Devices MixPre-D mixer or with my Mackie mixers. ( as far as I know these are +4dBv outputs ) All of my Olympus recorders have handled these signals with no problems at all.

I use the -10dBv TAPE OUT from the MixPre-D for convenience, as I can't see any difference when using the TAPE OUT versus the MixPre-D's LINE OUT. You might see a difference with a Sound Devices recorder, but the noise-floor of the Sony PCM-M10 and the Olympus LS-12 recorders are the limiting factor here.
 
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Presumably you note a difference in levels between the mixpre-d xlr line out and the tape out, with all other variables left unchanged? My concern was that the Olympus recorder input line level input - at -6dBv - isn't perfectly matched to the xlr line level output of the SD mixpre-d or that of other line level mixer/preamp outputs (and that preamp levels would have to be dropped slightly, with implications for effectiveness of limiters). Anyway, this is all totally academic (even assuming I'm not talking cobblers) to the OP as he can use the tape out of his mixpre-d!! I doubt if he will find much difference between the M10 or the LS 12 etc., but just thought it worth him running through the different features in case some of these were relevant to his planned use (for example, it sounds as if he plans to use the Rode lav direct into the recorder - which makes sense given the lav self noise and the impedances of his planned kit - in which case the M10 analogue gain knob sounds useful). Cheers, Roland
 
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