FS7: Looking for a Better Quality 18-105mm Zoom

basspig said:
That shot is a review on DP Review.

I guess different people have different sensitivity to the issue. My eye goes right to the colors that are 'alien' to the scene. It is a major distraction.

For several days, I thought that Lens Compensation was working to make my 28-135 look better than it seemed, but then I found out it only works to straighted curved lines and only in HD resolution, not 4K. So I turned it off to gain access to features that are disabled with it on. And the image quality didn't degrade, so it is the lens. That image quality is better than I find on many feature films shot with large budgets. Whereas the sample I linked to was more akin to an older Kubrick film image quality. Even if you correct it in post, there's still a loss of resolution.

My Rokinon 12mm prime at f2.0 also produces a stellar image. Most zooms I've tried do not.

28-135 is fine outdoors, but I need a lot wider for indoor work. Faster would help, too.

Fortunately, I can often find sample images for a lot of these lenses. Keep the suggestions coming, but remember that I am biased in favor of cine lenses with at least 100° rotation of the focus ring and hard stops.
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The Angie DP Rouge is an option to consider. You can pick one up for around $14k. Both DP Rouge's have a relatively short range. Either 16-40mm or 30-80mm. And they are smaller in size and lighter in weight than that Canon Cine servo. As to their susceptibility to Chrom Abb, I have no idea. The Schneider Xenons might be a consideration for primes. The price range is between the CP2's and the Cooke Mini S's.

No offense meant to anyone, but if you are going to have a highly critical eye then you have to step up to high-end glass. Even a Lexus will rarely handle like a Porsche. And a Honda surely will not.

Speaking of the Honda, that Sony 18-105mm has many shortcomings but it is one of the only sufficiently wide servo zooms for S35 for under $30k. And it is par focal. Just tell your clients that all the focus-hunting is "the look" you were going for. :thumbsup:
 
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I'm not sure I'd recommend the Xenons to anyone wary of CA. I was quite interested in them as a possible alternative to the CP.2s, but their CA handling seems markedly worse than the Zeisses.

In the entry-level PL-mount game (Zeiss CP.2s, Canon CN-Es, Schneider Xenons) optical performance seems a much of a muchness, they're all good without being great. It's mostly the mechanics that you're paying for.
 
The 18-105 is not parfocal. At least my sample wasn't.

Is it so hard for Sony to make a wider version of the fabulous 28-135 G lens? That's all I'm asking. Even if it were double the price, it would be on my FS7 as fast as UPS could get it here.

The Canon - CN7x17 KAS S Cine-Servo 17-120mm T2.95 (EF Mount) might also be a nice lens, but it cost about 15 times what I paid for my piece of real estate in 1966. Not sure what the CA performance is like, but it sure has the range.
 
On CA it is worth considering..

-The FS7 has pretty bad edge issues that can be confused for CA.

-CA can be caused by sensor well depth and light hitting the sensor off axis, so a lens may perform well with one sensor and not another

-People who are any good at post will have desaturating those edges nailed down and do it in 10 seconds

S
 
basspig said:
The 18-105 is not parfocal. At least my sample wasn't.

Is it so hard for Sony to make a wider version of the fabulous 28-135 G lens? That's all I'm asking. Even if it were double the price, it would be on my FS7 as fast as UPS could get it here.

The Canon - CN7x17 KAS S Cine-Servo 17-120mm T2.95 (EF Mount) might also be a nice lens, but it cost about 15 times what I paid for my piece of real estate in 1966. Not sure what the CA performance is like, but it sure has the range.
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I know, I know. You feel your own pain much more acutely
than you feel someone else's pain. Some of us have been asking for
this lens......well since the FS100 came out several years ago. You
are a relative newcomer to 'feeling the pain'. :). In all seriousness,
you just have to get by the best you can right now. Sony knows
what we want and they will be making it....I'd bet quite a bit on that.
Timetable though, that's the $20,000,000,000 question.
 
"-People who are any good at post will have desaturating those edges nailed down and do it in 10 seconds"

Hmm does that really work? I've never tried it - a very narrow secondary correction? I guess it depend on whether it would affect other parts of the image. Anyone else? Got a sample of that Sam?

BTW - No question we are talking about lens CA here nothing to do with sensor.
 
That edge problem you see with sunsets is due to use of the non CINE S-Log 3 mode. Use CINE and that fringe is gone.

I'll point out that the 28-135 is free of these artifacts, and to a large degree, so are my Rokinon cine primes. I'm pulling more detailed stills off my Premiere timeline than I get out of my Nikon D7000! Less noise too.
 
Sorry, the Rokinon primes are not even remotely free of CA (green magenta fringing around high contrast edges close to the focus point .)If you think so you don't know how to look for it .
Have you tried Just looking at a focus chart atF1.4 ?
As always the 35 mm is the worst .
Those lenses are good for the money - that's all.
 
Lenilenapi said:
"-People who are any good at post will have desaturating those edges nailed down and do it in 10 seconds"

Hmm does that really work? I've never tried it - a very narrow secondary correction? I guess it depend on whether it would affect other parts of the image. Anyone else? Got a sample of that Sam?

BTW - No question we are talking about lens CA here nothing to do with sensor.
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CA bashing is normal in stills software and will surely come to motion software.

At the moment I do it in Resolve by creating a node, with saturation 0, and qualify that node around bright magenta.

AKA that takes any bright magenta to white

Is it quick.. well as long as you dont have models in the frame wearing magenta. Magenta is the new black for 2016 dont ya know.

S
 
Lenilenapi said:
Sorry, the Rokinon primes are not even remotely free of CA (green magenta fringing around high contrast edges close to the focus point .)If you think so you don't know how to look for it .
Have you tried Just looking at a focus chart atF1.4 ?
As always the 35 mm is the worst .
Those lenses are good for the money - that's all.
Click to expand...

I was just thinking this. The day when Rockinon primes are held up as being more suitable for high-end work than Red Cinema lenses - based on quality - is the point where I gracefully back out of the thread.

I shot exclusively on Samyangs/Rockinons for a couple of years until I started moving towards modded Contax Zeiss - the difference in overall image quality was staggering. And then compare the Contax lenses to a genuine modern cinema lens like the Red, used on countless films and docs. It's not even vaguely close which wins out.
 
Right now I use Sig 18-35 & Tokina 50-135 to cover my needs.

Does anyone have experience with the Tokina Cine lenses? Not much information out there with samples. It appears they have reworked the glass to solve the breathing and CA of their stills line.

I could see myself going with 2 zooms 16-28 T3 and 50-135 T3. Ef mount with solid dumb adapter should cover all of my lensing needs. I'd miss 35mm but its not like 28mm is far off. Not bad for around $10K.

I just wish there were more samples out there testing actual lens qualities not just showing it and talking about it.
 
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Lenilenapi said:
Sorry, the Rokinon primes are not even remotely free of CA (green magenta fringing around high contrast edges close to the focus point .)If you think so you don't know how to look for it .
Have you tried Just looking at a focus chart atF1.4 ?
As always the 35 mm is the worst .
Those lenses are good for the money - that's all.
Click to expand...


I've never used a Rokinon at F 1.4. The fasted one I can find in B&H's catalog is an a F 1.5. I own their F2.0 12mm prime and their T2.2. 16mm Cine Prime. Both have much less CA than: all the Fujinon lenses I have for my EX3, my Nikon DX lens, the Sony SELP18-105, and apparently some of the Zeiss lenses that are highly acclaimed but show copious CA in sky shots through trees, such as the opening seconds of "Snowlight", which was shot on the FS7 with a Zeiss.

Yes, the Rokinon is not perfect, but it keeps the CA down to a level where I find it doesn't bother me. The Sony (Zeiss?) 18-105 zoom that I returned to B&H was just awful in that regard. I need to start capturing some crops of test footage so I can show you what I'm seeing here.

Many of the reviewers who check out the Rokinons are surprised by the quality and are saying the images compare to lenses costing a lot more. I would agree. Not perfect, but better than 90% of what's out there and a lot less expensive.

But maybe one day Sony will turn the world on it's end and announce a 16-85 lens of the build quality and usability of their fabulous, 'too good to be true, but is' 28-135 cine lens. 16mm is a 'reasonable' wide angle for indoor work. I like wide angles because they make modest indoor spaces look larger than life.
 
Since I don't have any T1.5 Rokinon lenses at the moment, I cannot pass judgement. I do plan to buy the 24mm T1.5 at some point in the near future though.
 
Thanks. I'll take that into consideration when I make a decision about the 24mm T1.5. I am very pleased with their wide angle primes so far. They both breathe when focus is adjusted, but image quality is excellent. No major flaws that jump out at me. So few lenses I have tried and seen sample stills from, perform at this level. There is a lot of mediocre optics out on the market. I first noticed when I made the transition from SD to HD. But with 4K, it's ever more paramount.

Is this the lens: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1078642-REG/rokinon_ds24m_nex_ds_24mm_t1_5_cine.html
 
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The 24mm Samyang can be lovely but compared to the others is a bit soft wide open. I used to shoot plenty of 4k material with it on a Red Scarlet and for the most part it came under the 'good enough' category as opposed to be mindblowing or anything.

This was a screengrab from a Red Scarlet shot.

Audi R8 - Paris Air Museum by Ben Scott, on Flickr
 
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