FS7: Looking for a Better Quality 18-105mm Zoom

basspig

basspig

Veteran
I'm in the lens hunting phase of ownership.

The 28-135 is superb quality (even to a pixel peeper like me), but a bit slow and far too narrow for indoor work.

I bought a modest priced Rokinon 12mm Prime that produces good images, but does not have de-clicked iris, and the controls are small and hard to operate without getting fingers into the FoV. Image quality is really quite good though.

I purchased a Sony 18-105 G lens this week, but I am not thrilled with it at all. Everything is servo driven, no geared rings with hard stops. Image quality is fair--not up to the levels of the 28-135. Lots of CA on my shooting through trees test (about as horrid as the CA in the "Snowlight" video opening scene from Anticpated Media. I can tolerate it on a ENG HD lens, but not on a 4K cine camera. And when focused at full tele, it goes wildly out of focus as I pull back just a touch, then back in focus for the rest of the ramp to wide angle. So...

I'm looking for something under 5 grand that is of the same build quality as the 28-135 and same image quality, but goes to 16 or 18mm on the wide end and at least 100mm on the tele end.

I've looked at the RED lenses, but was disappointed to find that even their primes only resolve 100lpmm at center and 60~ in the edges. That's adequate for 1080, but 120lpmm is really the minimum for sharp 4K. They would also require a PL mount adapter.

So I'm looking for a cine-style lens with real mechanical iris, focus and zoom rings that are clearly marked in feet/meters for repeatable focus pulling. I'm hoping to save money on the used market, since lenses generally last a long time if cared for. My 28-135 was purchased from B&H's used stock for about 2 grand and is, to me, as good as new, and the most perfect image I've ever seen. It will be tough to find a wider lens that can match it for image quality and stay under $30,000. But if Sony could do it for $2500, then there must be other lenses with similar features and build quality as well as image quality, but at a wider end of the focal range. That $600 18-105 has about the right range of focal lengths for run & gun walkabout, but the controls are poor and image quality isn't congruent with the FS7's abilities.

I'm interested in suggestions for a zoom lens in the 16-18mm wide end and about 100mm on the tele end. As long as there exists an adapter to use it on the FS7's E-mount, it should be fine. Even better, if it communicates with the camera its F-stop, zoom and focus information for the metadata. OIS would be helpful, since this would be frequently used for walkabout use. Bonus points for a faster than F4 aperture. If I can find an F2.8/T3 lens that gives me the distortion-free 18-100mm coverage, that's the lens I will likely keep on the camera for most of my work. I'd go as high as 5 grand for a really exceptional used lens that resolves to the pixel at 4K and has a flawless image quality.

What are some lens makes and models I should be considering (remember, cine style lenses)?
 
I'm hunting around the used market.. from Angenieux to Carl Zeiss.. found a 10-100mm, but it's an Arri PL mount. Some of the PL mount adapters are said to short out the electrical connections on the FS7 causing the camera to shut down. There may be some good used lenses out there, but the PL mount presents challenges. I remember being impressed with the sharpness of Angenieux lenses.

Or should one take a wait and see what Sony has planned to roll out in terms of Cine lenses for the E-mount? The SELP18105G is a pretty mediocre lens, but is just about right for focal range. Of course 10-100mm would be fantastic, but I've not been overly impressed with Carl Zeiss lenses over the years.
 
I'm sure that 10-100 is a 16mm movie lens . Sadly, the lens you want doesn't exist otherwise we would all be buying it . Hunt as much as you want but your time would be invested better elsewhere.
 
Contax Zeiss 35-135 on a speedbooster would give you a 24-95mm f2.8-3.3 with great optics and a decent focus rotation and a very decent price. It's a push pull though which is great for run and gun but might not suit everybody.

I use the 28-85 version all the time.
 
Perhaps you are better off trying to find a complementary lens for the one you already have?

Eg. there are several wide zooms now which cover the sub-30mm range - Duclos 11-16, GL Optics (Sigma) 18-35, to name but a few.

An ARRI Alura 18-80 T2.8 is an excellent lens, but simply too large for what you want I am fairly sure. There are a lot of people who have made the move from B4 to PL and are shocked at not having one-lens-to-rule-them-all any more.
 
JMtheDP said:
Perhaps you are better off trying to find a complementary lens for the one you already have?
Click to expand...


This is completely pointless, most likely, if one is covering actuality. Time moves on, fast, and the event you wanted a wide (or CU) of has moved on. The moment has passed.

To me the options are.. (if you have rejected electronic lenses)

28-85 manual and speedbooster

shoot a different style

buy one of the $20k options and beef up to carry it

buy a camera with a different chip size

S
 
In the range of 18-105 do it all R&G lens I've accepted the the Sony is the only one and work around its flaws. Its also probably one of my lightest lenses which helps over an entire day.
 
morgan_moore said:
This is completely pointless, most likely, if one is covering actuality. Time moves on, fast, and the event you wanted a wide (or CU) of has moved on. The moment has passed.

S
Click to expand...

I come from a narrative perspective, but I guess the issue is the OP's dream lens is probably not one that exists at any price point. Lenses that natively cover S35 and are T2.8 or faster are rarely more than a 3x zoom before they start getting big.

If the speedbooster gave him the same angle of view as a FF camera (which I believe they do?) then 28-85 type thing is probably quite nice - it is a well served focal range.
 
The Arri is a nice lens, but I can't find any selling within the budget range I specified.

If I could use a speedbooster with the 28-135, I would be covered. Does such a thing exist? If so, I could use it for indoor work, and without it for outdoor work where I need more tele range.

I can't understand why there is such a glaring gap in the focal ranges, why there is nothing that covers this range except a mediocre lens. It's like Sony taunted us with this loss leader of a 28-135, inspiring us to buy the FS7, and it is assumed that there are other lenses of that construction that cover the wider angles but less tele. But I haven't found any. A DSLR consumer lens is not a cinematography lens. Is my only alternative to buy all the Rokinon cine primes from 10mm to 24mm?

If I could use a speedbooster with the 28-135, I would probably find that about right.

My Rokinon 12mm prime is nice and wide and sharp, but the Sony 18-105 falls far short of these two other lenses in terms of image quality and ergonomics. Why can't they make a bigger 18-105 that's cine quality? I would buy it in a heartbeat if it were priced under $5000.
 
Re 28-135 it is not possible optically due to flange focal depth issues. You are far from the first person to yearn for a good18-105. Juan martinez has made it very clear to Sony engineering. Cross your fingers. In the meantime pick your poison that's all you can do.
 
JMtheDP said:
There are a lot of people who have made the move from B4 to PL and are shocked at not having one-lens-to-rule-them-all any more.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's sock as much as it is just annoyance, but for people like me it's the biggest draw back, if you're not shooting narrative or mostly controlled type shoots. For sit-downs, it's fine and I really like my fast Canon cine primes, but when we're asked to shoot b-roll or have to follow people around and shoot things like we would with an ENG cam/lens, it's a severe handicap.

My primary ENG lens is a Fujinon 13x4.5 f/1.8. For s35 I would need a 12-156 T2 to give me the same versatility and range. Hell, I'd "settle" for a 12-120 T2.8… Lol. The Canon 17-120 is nice, but I still don't shoot enough with my C300 and F55(outside of sit-downs) to justify a $30K+ lens purchase. I'm probably going to end up getting the IBE B4 to s35 adapter so that I can use my ENG lenses on my 55. Yes, there is some image degradation and light loss(2.6 stops), but it gives you a very versatile lens and if you're outside, the light loss isn't as big of a deal.
 
Last edited:
You can't use a speedbooster for an E mount lens on a E mount camera. The lens has to be a Canon EF or Nikon F mount to be adapted.

Short answer, there is no lens that meets your specifications, sorry. No lens is sub 24mm to 100mm that covers s35 with a constant aperture and has a cine iris ring and marked focus ring and image stabilization under 5000$ with tack-sharp image quality. If you're willing to give up and go to only up to 70mm, you have a better chance of finding, if you can give up and settle for 24mm, you will have a better chance, same wise, if you can give up cine gears, you'll have a better chance, and so on. You'll have to give up one thing at least.

Still glass is the only type closest to what you want, but they don't have cine gears, declicked iris rings and cine focus rings. They do however have all the other requirements, IS, sharp, <24mm to 100mm<,


My idea:

How about this, you get a fullframe 24-120 or 24-105mm or 24-135mm Nikon or Canon lens. Choices are many, from Sigma the 24-105mm F4 IS, the Canon 24-105mm F4 IS, Nikon 24-120mm F4 IS, all of them have IS and are designed for 5-6K resolution. The sigma one is especially the sharpest one. Buy one of these (around 1000$)

Then put a Metabones speedbooster, a Canon one with electronics so you'll have aperture control, AF and image stabilization. This will turn the lens into a 17-80mm F/2.8 IS S35 lens, or if the Nikon one or longer to a 17-90/100mm F/2.8 IS S35 lens.

To this point you've spent around 1500-2000$ at most. And you have the lens you specified, except for one thing, the cinema style rings and gears,

So, with the left 3000-3500$, you send the previous lens to a Cine modification company, Doclous lenses or a similar company, and they'll rehouse the lens into a fully functional cinema lens that's rugged, long focus throw with marks, de click the iris, gears, complete body housing.

How is that for a solution to your problem? You just need to find a 24-105/120/145mm Nikon or Canon or Sigma or Tamron that you find sharp enough. Stills lenses are of high quality though but research before you buy on photographic reviews on 20mp sensors.
 
Interesting solution, but 24mm is still too narrow.

What flies counter to intuition is why it's so hard to make wide lenses for a large sensor camera. I have a 4-32mm zoom lens on my EX3 and that's a 1/2" sensor!

If cinematographers can get wider angles on 35mm format, how are they doing it?

There ARE 18-105 lenses, it's just that the image quality is barely adequate for 1080, much less 4K. I was comparing the EP-Z-18-105 to the 28-135 and there is no comparison. They are in totally different leagues. Like comparing a Brownie camera to a Bolex. The zoom is hard to control, it's near impossible to nail focus when just 1° of rotation causes a 30' change in focal distance and is speed-dependent, the sharpness is poor with image smudge at F4 and copious CA. It's a consumer grade SLR lens and it doesn't belong on the FS7.

How hard can it be to build a 18-105 that's bigger, heavier and much better quality, and have the features of the 28-135? I can't believe that's not possible under 5 grand. Sony did it for 2.5 grand with the kit lens and people have been comparing that to $30K parfocal lenses. And frankly, it's the best lens and shoots the best quality images I've ever seen from ANY source, be it still photos or cine.

I wish I could get my verification e-mail from Sony so I can get on their forums. It's been a month since I created an account and every day, I ask to resend the verification e-mail, but it never comes. There is no way to contact them without a verification e-mail to give you posting capabilities. But the Sony folks are there, and I see there's another user there who is concerned like me about the audio system on the FS7. Frustrating is that I cannot communicate with them.

I was reading an article tonight on the FS7 and the main downside they pointed out was a lack of glass in the wide end of the angles. That ought to be real easy to achieve with a large sensor. ENG lenses have been managing that with small sensors for years. I don't care about the size and weight. The camera body is big, relative to all the lenses, and with support rods, any cine lens should pair nicely with it. At least someone put the word in to Sony. We need a second high grade lens, just wider.
It's not like I'm asking for a lens that goes from 8mm to 300mm in one unit. That would be something only Bill Gates could afford. But a 18-105 with the IQ of the 28-135 ought to be within budget of FS7 owners.
 
You know I sympathize with all your frustration, but frankly you're late to this party. Those of us who've had this camera for 6 months or more have been abundantly clear to Sony that the 28-135 lens design was a huge mistake and that we need an 18-105, that the existing 18-105 is not functional, that it would sell to every owner of an FS7 , blah blah, blah. Juan Martinez the US rep has made the same pitch to the Sony engineering staff at the top of their food chain and I talked to him about it for a half hour on the phone. Lets hope they make one, but its not like you're the first guy to make a stink about it.

Meanwhile grossing about how easy it must be to make one flies in the face of the fact that there ain't one yet. The Canon 24-105 has lots of problems and the Sigma 24-105 is wildly unparfocal . People have done a good job with shorter lenses like 17-50 or 24-70 but its obviously hard to make a longer one which is why the pro lenses cost so much.

I've got a Canon 24-105 for reach and a Tamron 24-70 for quality and a extra stop of light - Paired with speed booster or a normal metabones I get from 18-105, but I can't do it all at once. I've got the cheap Sony 18-200 for outdoor work when I really need a wide range but it ends up being an f6.3 if you want to zoom through. That's the best I could do for now. Pick your poison.
 
Last edited:
Consider this and work backwards. http://www.zeiss.co.uk/camera-lenses/en_gb/cine_lenses/master_lenses/master_zoom.html

16-110 2.8 - 27lb in mass.

Let us assume that zeiss made this lens the best they could, I doubt there are huge design inefficiencies.

So how could we trim the design down to create a handheld lens?

Well let us move to T4, that will make the lens smaller by a factor of 1.41, reducing the mass to 19lb.

Now let us change the lens from 16mm to 18 or 19mm - this will make a significant reduction in size.

Yes it will reduce the size to that of a cabrio, or if we allow ramping of iris at the long end we could make it smaller.. like the canon 17-120

Simply making this lens is complex unless someone 'thows away the rulebook'

For example I dont want a zoom, Id go with a 18-35-85 variable prime designed in the nature of the Leica Tri Elmar.

I do agree however that the 18-105 could surely be beefed up an rolled out at around $4g

S
 
The question is why there isn't one yet. Come on, large image circle, wider angle, big sensor. "Tunnel vision" was a problem with 1/4" sensors like the V1U. The bigger the sensor, the easier it is to make wide angle glass. For the S35 format, that ought to be a walk in the park. Or maybe Sony is afraid to make a lens over 3lbs?
 
basspig said:
The question is why there isn't one yet. Come on, large image circle, wider angle, big sensor. "Tunnel vision" was a problem with 1/4" sensors like the V1U. The bigger the sensor, the easier it is to make wide angle glass. For the S35 format, that ought to be a walk in the park. Or maybe Sony is afraid to make a lens over 3lbs?
Click to expand...

Actually, that is not strictly true. From a PL mount perspective, as well as EF mount etc... wide angles are extremely tricky because a wide lens naturally wants to focus much closer than the image plane - so you must create a lot of retrofocal elements in order to focus properly. It is for this reason there are many successful conversions of the 50mm+ lenses to PL, and far fewer on the wider end, if they weren't designed to change mount easily.

I have worked, briefly, with the Master Zoom Sam talks about - it is a beast. Even Hollywood features decided it was too much. My 18-80 T2.6 Alura zoom is a third the weight, but still too big and heavy for casual use.

The closest lenses to your spec off the top of my head would be the old Angenieux 17-102. This should give you an idea of what size of lens is required to achieve that zoom range in S35. Modern developments can only reduce the size of lenses by so much.

(Not my picture)
scaled.php


The Fujinon Cabrio was pretty much invented for the modern market of people shooting S35 for documentary and the like, but in truth I think many of them would probably be better served with a B4 mount camera.
 
JMtheDP said:
in truth I think many of them would probably be better served with a B4 mount camera.
Click to expand...


Well a camera of another format, or thinking outside the box in some way.

I have always thought that MFT camera would probably (if the right lenses were made - they are not) provide a good balance of portability mixed with a large enough sensor to work in low light and offer narrow DOF.

Of course most B4 cameras are 1080.

Now if you want to acquire in 1080 you could get a Stigma 18-35, shoot 4k and then crop. 18-70 F1.8 nice!

I hope 'centre scan' comes in firmware and is made assignable, not a menu dig, then we could pop in and out all day.

The JVC cam is pretty nice in concept - offering S35, MFt and other crop modes.

If the FS7 had a 2.5k crop mode that would probably get a 17-55 into the right park and make great HD

S
 
That Angenieux 17-102 is a vintage lens. I have no idea if it's image quality would be on the par with the better Sony lenses.

I bought a 4K camera with the intent of shooting 4K, so center crop doesn't interest me. I want real optical resolution, not line doubling tricks.

So the flange back distance is a challenge because of the FS7's unique design?

For the time being, I think I will invest in some Rokinon primes. 12, 16, 24mm. I have a F 0.95 35mm on order at B&H.

As much as I hate the idea, it looks like I'll have to carry a bunch of primes with me and change lenses in the field.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top