F55: Looking for 2K 240fps raw MXF to look at

Nate Weaver

Nate Weaver

Veteran
I just did some testing with 120fps XAVC, and I'm disappointed. The evidence of line-skipping is pretty evident.

Can anybody with an R5 recorder post a raw 2K MXF @240fps?

If it just takes the raw recorder to fix the problem, then so be it. I have a 120 or 240fps MXF from the FS700/R5 combo, and while there's a little moire going on, I found it acceptable. Not at all like the XAVC that just came out of my camera.

Anybody?

I can provide a Dropbox upload point...
 
The moire is coarse enough that I'm not so interested in smoothing it over, it would be noticeably softer.

What I'm hoping is that the 2K raw, by virtue of the tiny amount of over sampling and a better debayer, can look acceptable.

Like I said, the HFR raw FS700 files looked nothing like this, so I have some hope. It's too bad I was just at Abel before closing and I might have been able to snag the raw recorder to test myself over the weekend.
 
Hi Nate,

It's midday here in Australia and I've just updated my F5 and R5 firmware. I'll do a test this afternoon and when you check your northern email in the morning, I should have something for you.
 
starcentral said:
How is 2k XAVC on F5? I haven't heard any complaints about it, wouldn't it have same / similar issues?
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I think the issue is the line skipping necessary above 60fps. So I don't know where that leaves 2K XAVC on the F5. It's prob fine below 60fps.

powervideo said:
It's midday here in Australia and I've just updated my F5 and R5 firmware. I'll do a test this afternoon and when you check your northern email in the morning, I should have something for you.
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That would be awesome, thanks Peter. I had a lot of foliage in my little test out my front door, the dancing in the leaves and tree bark was...not good.


Another theorem I just conjured...possibly the R5 "derives" the 2K from the entire 4K raster, whereas the F55 internals have to make 120fps 1080p in a completely different manner due to less processing power avail. Whatever the case, I'm hoping for a different image with the R5 involved!
 
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Just so nobody goes panicking over what I'm saying, it's clear that the cameras can do some beautiful 240. It just might not be via XAVC above 60fps.


What I shot @120 on my 55 looks NOTHING like Fillipo's clips. His are smooth as butter in detail rendering. Mine were very crunchy and aliased.
 
While philippo's video is very appealing it does not seem to do much to stress sharpness or show alaising.

IMO a crop mode HFR would be more intelligent - I hope that comes with the crop mode.
 
My initial tests indicate no moire at all. I just filmed the windy trees and garden in front of our house but at 120fps I couldn't detect anything objectionable. As for raw 2K 240fps, they won't even play in Premiere and output to a monitor.
 
morgan_moore said:
While philippo's video is very appealing it does not seem to do much to stress sharpness or show alaising.

IMO a crop mode HFR would be more intelligent - I hope that comes with the crop mode.
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No, but my test has lots of foliage and fine detail like his and they do not look the same. I'd post mine, but I don't want to quite yet in case I'm forgetting something important. Think 7D in 60fps mode, that's what mine looks like. Maybe I should be more clear with my terminology, I'm seeing aliasing as opposed to strictly moire. Foliage that distracts, near horizontal lines that go thick and thin. Plus, it's noticeably softer. Even the 1080p MPEG download of Fillipo's Vimeo looks markedly better.

Crop mode bugs me, I've done it plenty on Red.

Peter, if you can find a way to my public folder it's nate@nateweaver.net. I can't share a folder to you without knowing your email.
 
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Sorry not to state the obvious, but from Sony's v2 release notes:

1. High Frame Rate (HFR) Recording
In case of XAVC 1920x1080P, you can select 120FPS HFR recording.
And in case of RAW recording with AXR-R5, you can select 120FPS, 180FPS and 240FPS HFR 2KRAW recording with no windowing of image sensor.

Optical 2K Filter/CBK-55F2K:
When recording HFR more than 120FPS, moiré might occur in high frequency areas of the picture. You can reduce moiré by attaching an optional CBK-55F2K Optical 2K Filter. When you would like to check which filter is attached, please push STATUS button and check Camera status screen.
 
starcentral said:
Sorry not to state the obvious, but from Sony's v2 release notes:

Optical 2K Filter/CBK-55F2K:
When recording HFR more than 120FPS, moiré might occur in high frequency areas of the picture. You can reduce moiré by attaching an optional CBK-55F2K Optical 2K Filter. When you would like to check which filter is attached, please push STATUS button and check Camera status screen.
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Ok, but things like that are always a question of how much the OLPF has to soften the image to get rid of the aliasing. I'm not sure that's going to be an acceptable amount based on what I'm seeing. I could be wrong. Maybe Fillipo was using a version of the OLPF for the FS700 and it turned out great.

Also, changing out the OLPF takes a few minutes. Often times when shooting speeds like 120 I'm bouncing back and forth between 24 and off speed. Having such a changeout for high speed will be a drag. I bounced back and forth between speeds on my last job, changing out the OLPF in 25-40mph desert winds would not have been possible, even once.

All this kind of adds up to the 5/55 not really being a high speed camera for the level I want/need it to be (if the raw turns out to have the same aliasing). At that point it's just better to rent an Alexa (again, for me).
 
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Yes agreed, any change out needed to jump between frame rates isn't good in many more ways than one.

Unless Sony can address this electronically it's a major bummer for anyone who wanted over 60p without aliasing or moire.

I'm going to pick up a few 1/8 and 1/4 diffusion filters and do my own tests
 
starcentral said:
Yes agreed, any change out needed to jump between frame rates isn't good in many more ways than one.

Unless Sony can address this electronically it's a major bummer for anyone who wanted over 60p without aliasing or moire.

I'm going to pick up a few 1/8 and 1/4 diffusion filters and do my own tests
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Yes, please roll of some 120 XAVC and post back what you think. I myself am surprised.
 
I got some raw via Peter this morning. It's better, but still pretty blocky. At least compared to non HFR images, which are Alexa/Red silky-smooth.

Somebody else on the Sony forum has noticed too. What a bummer.

Dennis, I want you to test and tell me if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm serious.
 
To me a crop mode would be so much more sensible. Ok you might need a couple if wider wides or not but it seems simple with no gotchas
 
I not convinced on crop quality judging from comments from Red users. I was keen on getting a 16mm zoom for F5 2K crop work, but I will wait until 3.0 to see how how it actually looks.
 
morgan_moore said:
To me a crop mode would be so much more sensible. Ok you might need a couple if wider wides or not but it seems simple with no gotchas
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Not based on my experience with Red. It doesn't alias or moire, but it's noticeably softer and you can't push the ISO near as far.
 
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