F5: Looking at new camera purchase and debating between FS7 and F5. Advice?

[Donny 123]

I guess I should have qualified my statement as a personal assertion...but for starters, f5 is boxy with a flat bottom, so you need some sort of shoulder bracket. FS7 has a shoulder mount built in, though it's feeble and needs ancillary shoulder mount as well. It weighs more than the FS7. FS7 comes with a very nice handgrip config making it easy to adjust as the day wears on. F5's VF is somewhat awkwardly placed making you want to use ancillary bracetry to effectively mount for better hand held comfort.

Going hand held is somewhat subjective so my blanket comparison may have been a bit unfair but having worked both cameras, I personally find the FS7 closer to what a film camera feels like.

I have a F5 but have just recently worked with an Fs7 for the first time.. Yes I would have said they both need a decent base shoulder mount.. the Fs7 is just a sort of push into your shoulder type thing I found.. agree it is much lighter with a DSLR lens on it.. not sure i would trust that mount with heavier lenses !..
But I would have to disagree re the EVF.. the F5 LCD is way better in my opinion in all ways .. esp the Sony tube bracket on the Fs7.. you cant even keep the VF level ! if ever there was a page one design feature for a VF bracket .. .. If you have a top cheese plate and handle that you can move you can get the VF where ever you want it on an F5.. but yes you need to add on that stuff.. and that does makes it heavier for sure..
But as you say.. I think its just what ever you are used to.. funny I found the EVF/bracket to be the real weak point of the FS7. .. but if I owned the Fs7 and used it alot I would no doubt not like the F5 so much.

 

[Nirv]

I can understand why the C3001 was popular.. but the C300II.. the same design and that price.. I think these days its not that difficult for prod co,s to change camera,s.. not like they have to change a massive star trek edit suite.. or get adaptors for their lenses.. not like those still lenses are hugely expensive..?

But of course some ones buying them.. I just wonder the sales figures.. they left it a bit too late and not good enough I think..

Morgan.. what is are PD,s.. ? period drama..? I dont they would be shooting C30011 especially or C300 in the first place.. from what Ive read .. they are nearly all Alexa/Amira.. no surprise there.. 30% focus...?

I don't buy that Canon autofocus is worth spending ridiculous sums of money, I very much doubt the C300II will be popular at all. As you say Donny lens adapters work and you can buy a heap of lenses for the price difference between an FS7 and C300II anyway.

PDs = Producer/Director. Package TV programmes have dumbed down and sent desk jockeys out into the field with cameras. When the BBC discovered they could save money on local news by getting their broadcast journos to shoot as well as present they looked at other areas to deskill resulting in joyless visuals. Very often you'll get hugely under exposed scenes where someone thought it was a good idea not to blowout the clouds but the subject's face is horribly under exposed.

 

[Donny 123]

ah ok got it.. not period drama !.. sorry.. ignore all that ..

 

[Run&Gun]

I guess I should have qualified my statement as a personal assertion...but for starters, f5 is boxy with a flat bottom, so you need some sort of shoulder bracket. FS7 has a shoulder mount built in, though it's feeble and needs ancillary shoulder mount as well. It weighs more than the FS7. FS7 comes with a very nice handgrip config making it easy to adjust as the day wears on. F5's VF is somewhat awkwardly placed making you want to use ancillary bracetry to effectively mount for better hand held comfort.

Going hand held is somewhat subjective so my blanket comparison may have been a bit unfair but having worked both cameras, I personally find the FS7 closer to what a film camera feels like.

I come from an ENG background, so ALL of these cameras suck to me, design wise. But with that being said, I have a C300 and an F55. You have to rig all of them up to make them useable, whereas I can just pick up one of my VariCam's, throw it on my shoulder and it's like an Apple product: It Just Works, and feels like heaven to use. I love the image from the C300, but it's the biggest PITA to make work the way I want it to on the shoulder. I have a good set-up, BUT it's still a PITA and I hate it. The F55 is the easiest: Zacuto Universal Shoulder mount and a grip of your choice and you're pretty much in business. I did add the Berkey top cheese plate and NATO handle, but the VF is still mounted in pretty much the same spot as if it was on the factory handle. The Sony VF's on the F5/55 are real VF's and placed and work how they should. It's one of the main reasons the cameras are so easy to make shoulder-mountable and actually useable.

 

[morgan_moore]

I can understand why the C3001 was popular.. but the C300II.. the same design and that price.. I think these days its not that difficult for prod co,s to change camera,s.. not like they have to change a massive star trek edit suite.. or get adaptors for their lenses.. not like those still lenses are hugely expensive..?

But of course some ones buying them.. I just wonder the sales figures.. they left it a bit too late and not good enough I think..

Morgan.. what is are PD,s.. ? period drama..? I dont they would be shooting C30011 especially or C300 in the first place.. from what Ive read .. they are nearly all Alexa/Amira.. no surprise there.. 30% focus...?

a Pd is a "shooting producer director" mainly in uk tv the camera Man is extinct now these people shoot much stuff - mainly they are not from a camera background but from editorial - so to them reading Dvx or learning focus is very foreign

for them the Af is the killer app of the c300ii

 

[Run&Gun]

a Pd is a "shooting producer director" mainly in uk tv the camera Man is extinct now these people shoot much stuff - mainly they are not from a camera background but from editorial - so to them reading Dvx or learning focus is very foreign

for them the Af is the killer app of the c300ii

IF only that were true… Some networks tried that here in the U.S. years ago and eventually backed off(to an extent). Now one of my network clients, that used to be known for quality, decided to try it a few years ago and it has stuck. And it's getting worse. EVERY field producer has a handycam. Events that used to be covered by three full real crews are now covered by two crews and one of them is shooting with the producers camera by themselves. Events that used to be covered by a two-man crew are a lot of times covered by ONE person shooting with the producers camera instead of a real camera. Remote productions that used to be a "truck" production are done with three to four handy cams and sometimes not even a sat truck, they're using cell backpacks. They called me to inquire about a LS with a former pro-athlete who is a coach. No sooner than I told them I was available, they cancelled it because the show didn't want to pay for a crew to shoot it. They did it via Skype. And I'm not talking about some rinky-dink network, either. They're a MAJOR player and profit in the BILLIONS every year.

I've been predicting that within 18-24 months, this particular network will have real cameramen with real cameras pushed completely out, except in rare cases like very important features. I've already seen them shooting features with multiple 1/3" handycams, as it is. Anything to save a dollar… Quality be damned.

 

[Donny 123]

a Pd is a "shooting producer director" mainly in uk tv the camera Man is extinct now these people shoot much stuff - mainly they are not from a camera background but from editorial - so to them reading Dvx or learning focus is very foreign

for them the Af is the killer app of the c300ii

Yes Sorry thought it might mean period drama.. ! quite the other end of the scale ..

 

[morgan_moore]

I don't buy that Canon autofocus is worth spending ridiculous sums of money, I very much doubt the C300II will be popular at all. As you say Donny lens adapters work and you can buy a heap of lenses for the price difference between an FS7 and C300II anyway.

In the production/rental world is the C300ii expensive?

If you are using rental you just spec the C300ii not the C300i, maybe another $30 a day.

If you are a production company who buys on finance your C300i is paid for so just get back on the $400/pcm treadmill with the new camera.. all your C300i kit infrastructure works (apart from cards?) and all your PD training on the C300i works.. and if your client is now demanding 4k.. well it is there at a flick of a switch.. and your cheap PD operator is getting a bigger focus hit rate.

Id say very worth it.

As for AF being a 'killer app'.. yes even as a semi competent operator that I am I think there are situations where I would use it (a lot)

Returning to the thread 'F5 vs FS7'.. IMO the C300ii should also be in the 'consider it' basket.. mainly due to the great AF.

S

 

[allenfacemire]

I have a F5 but have just recently worked with an Fs7 for the first time.. Yes I would have said they both need a decent base shoulder mount.. the Fs7 is just a sort of push into your shoulder type thing I found.. agree it is much lighter with a DSLR lens on it.. not sure i would trust that mount with heavier lenses !..
But I would have to disagree re the EVF.. the F5 LCD is way better in my opinion in all ways .. esp the Sony tube bracket on the Fs7.. you cant even keep the VF level ! if ever there was a page one design feature for a VF bracket .. .. If you have a top cheese plate and handle that you can move you can get the VF where ever you want it on an F5.. but yes you need to add on that stuff.. and that does makes it heavier for sure..
But as you say.. I think its just what ever you are used to.. funny I found the EVF/bracket to be the real weak point of the FS7. .. but if I owned the Fs7 and used it alot I would no doubt not like the F5 so much.

And I guess that's my point. You can get used to anything I suppose. The only f5 I have shoulderd had a 3rd party VF with Rube Goldberg bracketrty that made it awkward...for me. Yes the FS7's VF mounting is...simplistic but I have found the sweet spot by adjusting the finder to where I want it exactly. I did this by mounting the camera on my tripod and leveling the head to the ball level, and the camera with a line level so ever thing is dead level. Even used the internal camera leveling indicator. Then I loostened the VF just enough to find the spot that worked for me and then tightened the heck out of all knobs, using a pair of pliers that has shrink wrap on the tongs to prevent scratching the knobs. I can still level up or down but the main part of the VF bracket is stable. It works for me.
And to me, the weight distribution is better with the FS7 and with the supplied handgrip and the grip that comes wth the Shape, I'm really pretty mobile and steady in handheld mode.
I would agree that lens mounting, particularly cinema grade zooms, could be taxing on the E-mount and support is vital but as I don't shoot movies nor do I have a need for more than my Nikon zooms, I've learned to live comfortably with my system.
I am considering one of the converstiion mounts allowing for B4 zooms in center mode but for sure that will also entail rail support.
Bottom line, I have exactly what I need for half the price of an f5 and I regularly shoot as second camera with f5's with no image matching issues whatsoever!

 

[Donny 123]

Yes agree sir.. if it works for you then it works .. I changed the Fs7 EVF mount for the Zacuto.. Vocas also make a good one too.. but yes apart from that particular point.. Fs7 is a great camera for the money.. and proved so by its popularity.. which has helped the F5 is be more excepted too !

 

[IronFilm]

Given the rate at which cameras are changing, whatever you buy will be obsolete in 3 to 5 years. The camera will still work of course, but you’ll feel like you’re shooting with a dinosaur. Given this fact, I would tend to go with the camera that is cheaper, and mostly meets my needs. Here this is the FS7. Of course, wait for NAB.

As a low end cheapskate myself, this is GREAT news! :-D

As I purchased a Sony PMW-F3 nearly ish a year ago for just US$1.2K, and I'm eagerly looking forward to 3yrs time when an F5 is "obsolete" and I can upgrade my F3 to an F5! ;-)

 

[IronFilm]

I suspect NAB will bring news of a new FS camera and if not NAB then IBC so spend as little as possible, get a return and put your earnings towards the next camera. Rinse, repeat.

Sony has already publicly stated that there will be no new super-35 cameras announced at NAB, so you can start looking ahead to IBC.

Welllll.... Sony said there will be no new CineAlta cameras.

If you are very tricky you might twist that meaning to be no new F series camera, but FS series are open game to be up for renewal.

So while I am not expecting an FS series camera at NAB or IBC, I wouldn't be completely surprised either if one did get announced in 2016. (because boy does Sony like to announce new cameras... haha)

 

[cuervo]

I bought an F5 a year ago. Sony has not disappointed by designing a camera that can be kept as current as possible with timely firmware updates. That's not to say the F5 will stay current forever, as there will always be developments that will exceed the hardware capabilities like sensor color space, processing speed, and buffer size. Having said that, I've taken notice of the entry price I paid for my F5. My current thinking is that acquisition price outweighs ownership. Given the rate of technology development, it no longer makes sense to buy a camera. Rather, rent an Arri or F55 as the need arises. The drawback with this philosophy is familiarization with the hardware, which can't be solved by buying a cheaper version of the same camera, i.e FS7 vs. F55/F5.

 

[IronFilm]

The FS7 is exactly my current needs but yeah I'm going to wait till NAB and see what the FS5 RAW update is before making my next purchase.

I'll bet a buck that FS5 raw will be just as flawed as FS7 raw, and using 12 bit linear raw unfortunately.

But if they simply gave the FS5 4K 10bit output then it would become a more semi ok choice over an FS7 for a person who shoots mainly HD but is gradually moving to do more 4K.

However, if you're doing mostly 4K right now, then I think it is a no brainer for most people to pick a FS7 over a FS5

Given the rate of technology development, it no longer makes sense to buy a camera.

Hmmm... only makes sense if you ONLY do bigger jobs where there is budget to rent the camera, *and* camera needs change around enough that it doesn't make sense to own (for instance if you do 95% of your shoots on a RED, then you probably should get a RED).

Because a person should still have a personal camera for smaller budget jobs, or just simply to get out there and practice to do what you enjoy (we're all in because we love the craft right? We don't just punch out and go home).

That camera however doesn't have to be fancy, simply a GH4/NX1/A7s/F3/FS5/C100/etc could easily meet those needs of being a "personal camera" for your own use and lower budget shoots.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Right on. I can't imagine being a professional in this business who doesn't own a high-end camera or two of their own to go out and shoot with anytime they want to for fun, practice, stock, demo reel, etc.
In 35 years in the business I have never rented a camera and I don't recall ever using a camera that wasn't my own except for on a live sports shoot with a remote truck. To me it would be like asking a wood carver to use someone else's knives or a painter to use someone else's brushes. I just gotta have my own stuff or I won't do the shoot.

 

[cuervo]

Right on. I can't imagine being a professional in this business who doesn't own a high-end camera or two of their own to go out and shoot with anytime they want to for fun, practice, stock, demo reel, etc.
In 35 years in the business I have never rented a camera and I don't recall ever using a camera that wasn't my own except for on a live sports shoot with a remote truck. To me it would be like asking a wood carver to use someone else's knives or a painter to use someone else's brushes. I just gotta have my own stuff or I won't do the shoot.

That's exactly my point, Doug. I agree that it doesn't make sense to use someone else's tools. What I'm saying, tho', is that at the current rate of technology development, ownership of professional quality hardware isn't cost effective. If one's business model supports $25k-$30k (and that's just for the baseline sensor)on an annual or semi-annual basis, then, by all means, go for it. Fortunately, good lenses are timeless. That is, until something like the Lytro camera is available. I'd be willing to bet the Lytro doesn't use conventional glass.
http://www.provideocoalition.com/lytro-brings-cinema-tomorrow-nab-2016/
My own break even point is about 5 years. If I can keep my F5 productive for 5 years, I'll be more than pleased. And I really think Sony understands this.

 

[Doug Jensen]

I hear what you're saying, but an expensive cutting-edge camera isn't always necessary. For example, I think someone already mentioned how affordable the F3 is right now if you don't need 4K, HFR, or RAW. Most clients are not asking for those things on regular basis. And the FS7 is a kick ass camera too that ought to pay for itself in a couple of months. And even if a "better" camera comes along tomorrow it would not diminish the FS7's ability to keep right on making money for several years. A camera like that is a cash cow even before you factor in all the saved hassles and downsides of renting. What new features or advancement could be around the corner that would make the FS7 obsolete overnight? Nothing. And for the sake of argument let's say that an FS7 would be totally outdated and worthless after one year -- so what? The camera ought to have paid for itself many times over during that year. If someone will rent a camera such as the FS7 more than 20 times (and who isn't doing 20 days of shooting every month or two?) you probably could have bought it. And that is not even factoring in what you will get back out if it when you sell it as used. I usually sell my cameras when I'm done with them for about 40%-50% of what they cost me new. So the true cost of my FS7 isn't $8K -- it is probably more like $5K after I sell it someday for $3K or more. It's all about ROI.

In the mean time, I've got a Swiss army knife camera that is ready to go at a minutes notice. It's always setup the way I want it. It's never been abused. I don't have to go through the hassle of picking up a rental and taking it back. No wasted time prepping and checking a rental before a shoot. I know my camera better that someone who only rents. I can go out and shoot stock anytime I feel like it, thus making even more return from the camera. I can do shoots for fun or other reasons without worring about the cost of a rental, etc.

If there is a better camera announced next week at NAB, it makes no difference to anything I have written above.

 

[cuervo]

Good point. I hadn't considered resale value. Like you, I would turn around a camera every one to two years. I haven't done that with my FS700/O7Q kit, since it works for about 75% of all my jobs. That's been a very good investment. And I have high hopes that my F5 will stay viable for 5 years, or so. The F5 is a real pleasure to use, I like it a lot. If I go the rental route, I don't think I'd go FS7, even tho' it may be a great camera. Red or Arri would be my objective, since, for myself, buying either of those is financially impossible.

 

[starcentral]

I've probably already replied to this thread but I forget.

If I had to guess, I would have bantered about going for the F5 if it's within your budget and probably linked to the DVX post on summarized differences between the latest Sony f-series cams.

The one thing to remember is that there is no afterlife with the FS7 - it is going to be the same camera forever. If you are planning any HFR over 60p with the F5 at least you can pop a 2K OLPF into it if you have some fussy subject matter. Also this summer with the AXS-R7 coming out, you can snag a deal on a used R5, or if you need full sensor size 4K in 120fps you can get the R7.

The F5 is practically limit-less is what I'm saying.

Everyone here says they are the same camera, they are only the same camera if you need 10-bit XAVC and some pretty viewing LUTs for clients. The F5 is way more camera and I 100% don't buy the ergonomic comments people make. That makes no sense to me. The dimensions for the camera are within 1 inch of each other. Maybe the FS7 has everything built in already so you don't have to buy it, but that doesn't mean the F5's ergo isn't good - it means you have a budget that doesn't allow for rigging up an F5.

Anyway, F5 all the way. Cry once.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Dennis, I agree that the F5 is also a great direction to go. I really love my F55 and if I had to get rid of the FS7 or the F55 it would be the FS7 going up for sale. And if I had to choose buying one camera or the other today, I'd still buy the F55 despite the much higher price. I need the features it offers even if the performance vs. cost can't compare to the FS7's overall value. But everyone's needs and budgets are different so I wouldn't say that would be the right choice for someone else. The point I was making, and I hope you will agree with, is that no matter what camera you buy, it's usually going to be better than renting for a busy professional.