F5: Looking at new camera purchase and debating between FS7 and F5. Advice?

Fotojorno said:
Speaking about ROI. Depending on who your clients are and what they're used to paying for kit/camera rental from you, a good larger chunk of change can be made owning a F5. Unless of course everyone/camera ops in YOUR market are under charging. For example; on high average I get a $500 per day rental for my F5 with a couple Nikon zooms. If lets say you shoot 50 days a year, compared to a FS7 where your prob getting around $300, thats a $10K difference, in one year. If you know your market/clients well and don't see them paying up for a F5 then you might not get your investment back as quick, or ever. Just a thought.
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Yeah currently the F5 is 95% more than I ever need or are hired for. Even being in the Bay Area I still don't have clients than want 4K or RAW. I mean for a lot of gigs I do my FS100 has been good enough from a client perspective. Maybe it's just because of the current gear I own but when I get requested from day rate package shooting they are usually requesting a C10-level package and I'm not sure that a $1500 rate can jump to $2000 even if it's an F5 vs Fs7. But that is planning for the now and not the future which is why the F5 intrigues me. If my work and clients get that need the capabilities of RAW 16 bit is tempting. I can also do more just gear rentals instead of all owner/op rates.

A month ago I was really hoping that the Fs5 with a RAW option would be my solution but after finally using it on a gig and seeing how weak the codec and high the noise levels were I moved back toward the Fs7 as I've liked everything I've shot on it. I'm leaning that way still right now as I think the F5 is probably more camera than needed and I can spend the extra $ on a gimbal and glass.
 
Given the rate at which cameras are changing, whatever you buy will be obsolete in 3 to 5 years. The camera will still work of course, but you’ll feel like you’re shooting with a dinosaur. Given this fact, I would tend to go with the camera that is cheaper, and mostly meets my needs. Here this is the FS7. Of course, wait for NAB.
 
DerekDock said:
Yeah currently the F5 is 95% more than I ever need or are hired for. Even being in the Bay Area I still don't have clients than want 4K or RAW. I mean for a lot of gigs I do my FS100 has been good enough from a client perspective. Maybe it's just because of the current gear I own but when I get requested from day rate package shooting they are usually requesting a C10-level package and I'm not sure that a $1500 rate can jump to $2000 even if it's an F5 vs Fs7. But that is planning for the now and not the future which is why the F5 intrigues me. If my work and clients get that need the capabilities of RAW 16 bit is tempting. I can also do more just gear rentals instead of all owner/op rates.

A month ago I was really hoping that the Fs5 with a RAW option would be my solution but after finally using it on a gig and seeing how weak the codec and high the noise levels were I moved back toward the Fs7 as I've liked everything I've shot on it. I'm leaning that way still right now as I think the F5 is probably more camera than needed and I can spend the extra $ on a gimbal and glass.
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From that description, it sounds like the FS7 is definitely a better choice for your needs. Having a lot of money tied up in a camera that you can't properly monetise is simply not sustainable. Particularly with the speed cameras progress these days.
 
Grug said:
From that description, it sounds like the FS7 is definitely a better choice for your needs. Having a lot of money tied up in a camera that you can't properly monetise is simply not sustainable. Particularly with the speed cameras progress these days.
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I couldn't agree more. The FS7 is more suited to the lone wolf and in regard it excels. Since FW3.0 the FS7 is a much better camera and nearly all of my gripes have gone.

DerekDock how many people have asked you for RAW? If the FS100 has been good enough for your clients and potential renters are only interested in C100 level than even the FS7 is overkill. If you had plenty of clients banging down the door demanding RAW it would be an easy decision for you. I no longer subscribe to the 'build it and they will come' school, I am lead by client demand and currently there is no demand for me to consider RAW no matter how much my inner geek wants to play with big boys' toys it would be financially stupid.

I suspect NAB will bring news of a new FS camera and if not NAB then IBC so spend as little as possible, get a return and put your earnings towards the next camera. Rinse, repeat.
 
DerekDock said:
After shooting corporate work for the past 5 years as part of a production company I will soon be going out on my own and want to have a personal camera so that I can offer my services to other productions while continuing my own client work in the corporate space. I've been shooting almost exclusively on the FS7 since its release so I'm leaning toward that with a B-Cam A7SII (for gimbal) but the F5 package deal with the A7S is very tempting. I've shot with a rented F5 once a couple years back when it wasn't all about 4K and Slog3 so my perspective has changed since then.

So my main question is for those that use the F5 do you find that it adds the value you are looking for? The only thing that really scares me is media cost on the F5. Going the F5 route means I won't have the budget to get my own gimbal which I am ok with as long as the value is there and I hire others for that or rent a Ronin when needed.
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Personally I find the FS7 is easy to match to most cameras and it has the same sensor as the F5. It's cheaper that an F5 and significantly better for handheld work.
Cons: I/o TC is a drag as you can't do TC pass through. You need a $2500 extension back to do TC but that also allows the use of Big Boy batteries and ProRes. And PL mounting via an adaptor can be problematic.
But im loving my FS7.
 
Nirv said:
I suspect NAB will bring news of a new FS camera and if not NAB then IBC so spend as little as possible, get a return and put your earnings towards the next camera. Rinse, repeat.
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Sony has already publicly stated that there will be no new super-35 cameras announced at NAB, so you can start looking ahead to IBC.
 
Nirv said:
I couldn't agree more. The FS7 is more suited to the lone wolf and in regard it excels. Since FW3.0 the FS7 is a much better camera and nearly all of my gripes have gone.

DerekDock how many people have asked you for RAW? If the FS100 has been good enough for your clients and potential renters are only interested in C100 level than even the FS7 is overkill. If you had plenty of clients banging down the door demanding RAW it would be an easy decision for you. I no longer subscribe to the 'build it and they will come' school, I am lead by client demand and currently there is no demand for me to consider RAW no matter how much my inner geek wants to play with big boys' toys it would be financially stupid.

I suspect NAB will bring news of a new FS camera and if not NAB then IBC so spend as little as possible, get a return and put your earnings towards the next camera. Rinse, repeat.
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Yeah I've had one client ask for RAW but that was based on them finding me through a magic lantern RAW video I did that No Film School picked up. I've only shot ML RAW and then a test run with the CION (that turned out shitty) as far as client side stuff.

My larger clients don't know camera lingo or anything but when I show up with FS7, Red Epics and shoot 4K they see a difference in their end results even if they aren't asking for 4k. The FS7 is exactly my current needs but yeah I'm going to wait till NAB and see what the FS5 RAW update is before making my next purchase.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Sony has already publicly stated that there will be no new super-35 cameras announced at NAB, so you can start looking ahead to IBC.
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Really? I didn't realize they had said no new super-35 cameras. I thought they said
"No new Cinealta camera'. I was thinking they had left themselves a little 'wiggle' room
to introduce something in the FS line, which I didn't think was part of the Cinealta family.
 
Donny 123 said:
What possible corner of the market have they not covered already :)
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The completely making Canon irrelevant market.

The Canon c300 seems to have displaced Sony in a lot of the lower end Broadcast roles, the insipid overly warm Canon colours are all over UK early evening package shows. It's better to cannibalise your own sales than for customers to buy the competitor's offering.

I would expect an FS9 to be the amalgamation of the good bits of the FS5 and FS7 plus maybe some of the interesting auto focus tech they rolled out in the little dslr recently to compete directly with the c300 II at a much lower price point I.e between the FS7 and F5.
 
I really wonder what the sales figures are on the C300II... apart from die hard C300 I owners.. I cant believe anyone would buy one now.. with the alternatives around.. and that its still design based on kettle .. and only has centre crop in off speed mode..?
 
The c300ii is perfect for everyone who does not read this board - shooting PDs. So you have a production company switched to the c300i and the love the look but 30% focus dropped when used by a shooting Pd is a problem - buy c300ii and the problem is solved.
 
Any company heavily invested in Canon glass for stills, who is also taking on video work is shooting Canon camera's. I know because I'm hired occasionally by a local company to light and/or shoot camera - but with their equipment, which is all Canon. My Sony and Nikon and Zeiss PL lenses stay at home, they don't care if its better or not. They've already established delivery and quality expectations with their clients, so it stays Canon.

Canon has also been making excellent lease deals on their equipment for a very long time. I was told once by the owner of a media company they buy Canon because of the leasing program, which also gives you big discounts off any retail pricing you see on the market.

It seems for many reasons other than the ones that should be obvious to us, that Canon is very popular and found some foothold in the market.
 
Donny 123 said:
"It's cheaper that an F5 and significantly better for handheld work."

Just out of interest.. how so..? thanks..
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I guess I should have qualified my statement as a personal assertion...but for starters, f5 is boxy with a flat bottom, so you need some sort of shoulder bracket. FS7 has a shoulder mount built in, though it's feeble and needs ancillary shoulder mount as well. It weighs more than the FS7. FS7 comes with a very nice handgrip config making it easy to adjust as the day wears on. F5's VF is somewhat awkwardly placed making you want to use ancillary bracetry to effectively mount for better hand held comfort.

Going hand held is somewhat subjective so my blanket comparison may have been a bit unfair but having worked both cameras, I personally find the FS7 closer to what a film camera feels like.
 
I can understand why the C3001 was popular.. but the C300II.. the same design and that price.. I think these days its not that difficult for prod co,s to change camera,s.. not like they have to change a massive star trek edit suite.. or get adaptors for their lenses.. not like those still lenses are hugely expensive..?

But of course some ones buying them.. I just wonder the sales figures.. they left it a bit too late and not good enough I think..

Morgan.. what is are PD,s.. ? period drama..? I dont they would be shooting C30011 especially or C300 in the first place.. from what Ive read .. they are nearly all Alexa/Amira.. no surprise there.. 30% focus...?
 
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