Location sound in extremely confined environment?

To take a bit of an off ramp here...


Addressing what is a "sound" issue:
Based on my experience, and that of other professionals that I deal with, a noisy camera isn't the sole responsibility of the sound department. Sound department lets the correct person know "hey, your camera is causing too much noise and is ruining the sound. We can do 'x', 'y', or 'z' to fix this". If camera department is unwilling to help solve this issue, there is nothing else the sound department can do. This is what is known as an equipment problem. If you decide to shoot right next to an airport, you let the proper people know "hey, all these planes are going to ruin takes", and that's all you can do. This is what is known as a location problem. When you combine an equipment problem with a location problem that causes issues for sound, all of a sudden it becomes a sound problem even though the sound department did not create this problem. It is our job to help resolve these issues, but we are not miracle workers and if the folks that caused these problems are not willing to do what it takes to fix them, then they need to understand what the results will be and as a sound mixer it is YOUR job to make sure you make note of this in your sound reports so picture editorial and dialogue editorial don't throw you under the bus later on down the line. I'm not saying completely ignore issues. If you have an echoey room then you need to try and knock that down. That's what we do. But when equipment and location become so absurd that it gets to the point where there is potential for no usable dialogue no matter what, then it ceases to be a sound problem. This isn't just my opinion. This has been discussed with LOTS of heavy hitters over on JWSound a lot.
 
OK there is a semantic misunderstanding here. What you are saying is that fundamentally it's not a sound DEPARTMENT problem, and I think everyone would agree. But it is a SOUND problem, as in it IS a problem for sound - production and post. Certainly the sound department does not have the clout (usually) to fix the basic problem, you can only do what you can. But you should do all that you can because otherwise it just gets handed off to post and they don't have a lot of options. When the director/ producer is faced with having to do a lot of ADR you (production sound person) really want them knowing going in that you pointed out the problem and worked to mitigate it because whoever made the decision just ran up a big $$$ tab to the budget.
 
OP,

Thanks for the explanation. Director is off the hook. As a class challenge, it's a tricky one. S16 makes a LOT more sense and it's not a delivery format so you can forget the nightmare of mixing for 16mm.

Since this is a school project and you are not paying by the hour I would cheat a little and do some tests. You could load the camera with slug or? and do a set up and see what gives you the least camera noise. You can assume that any shots where the camera is IN the van are only going to be scratch track since the camera is going to be way too loud.

You also may have a bit of a personal challenge. I haven't heard the camera you mention but even many video cameras are not silent. You may be listening with a DP's ears and you really need to listen with a mixers ears. What I mean by that is most people spend their lives listening for what they want to hear. As a recordist you need a little of that but much of the time you need to be focused on what you Don't want to hear. Once you have mics in place and levels in the zone what is really important is that you catch that plane in the distance, or the ticking of the camera, or the warble of a cel phone not turned off. These things will stand out in a VERY big way once the sound is being listened to out of context, and they can be huge problems for post. Everybody else is focused on the performance so you are the only one focused on the sound and the problems.

I mention this because your a student and I'm assuming don't have a lot of experience and this is something that even folks with a lot of experience slip up on. You get into the Sound and miss the little ? in the background and get into post and wonder where the heck that buzz came from. Planes, trains, and automobiles are usually the big ones because we are so used to tuning them out. But a repetitive sound like a camera can also easily get tuned out so you need to extra vigilant.

When your doing the tests, or whatever prep is done, see if you can get some frame lines. Any surface you can pad down in the van will help the sound. Maybe set can help. Carpeting the floor of the van for instance would help. your going to be so tight in there that the floor may be the only thing you can pad, but a packing blanker over things out of the shot may well make things sound better.

Here are some things I see may be a problem.

Lavs, will tend to sound like lavs. You can mitigate that a lot in post, IF you do a real post.
Plant mics may sound better, especially if you can pad down some surfaces.

Which picks up less camera is something you really need to test. I suspect lav's but? They are omni so maybe not.

The Van is small and boxy, you probably don't want that sound. Padding will help, lav's would probably help. Mic placement is likely to help.

Small spaces tend to "fill up" with sound easily. If there is yelling etc. then this could be a problem. There isn't a real solution to that "filled up" sound but padding can help.

The Van is outside some place I'm assuming. If so go there and do some recording or really quiet listening. Traffic, birds, frogs, crickets, may all be a problem. If they are see if they can move the van to someplace where it's less of a problem. Remind them that the exterior shots do not have to happen in the same location as the interior shots.

Good luck
 
Thanks so much for your help Noiz2!

We have lots of dummy rolls which I'm sure I can get my hands on - that way I can go crazy and test it out as much as needed.

The vast majority of shots are static, and the actors won't be moving around too much (as far as I know), so padding shouldn't be a problem.

Do you have any recommendations for plant mics? Aside from some shotgun mics, Sennheiser lavs are really our only option, though hiring additional equipment is still an option at this point.

We're shooting some shots at a trailer park, but I believe a lot of the interiors will be at one of the crew member's houses (in a suburban location).
 
For plant mics you can go Sanken CUB-01, Neumann KM 184, or other similar small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics. Those are the ones I've used for this situation. You can mount the Neumanns in a shock mount, and then use a magic arm to put them just about anywhere, or a cardellini clamp, or Noga arm, or one of many mounting solutions. If you are able to do coverage of both plant mics and lavs and record those all on discrete tracks then do that. Give your post sound people the most options so they can pick and choose in this situation.
 
Considering the cramped quarters Cardioids start to look like a not bad option. I have a bunch of PZM's so that is probably what I would try since they have a wide pattern and very low profile. They were designed for stage floor use and podiums. Since those are probably not in your mic locker then Dave's suggestions are good. I would be less concerned with brand VS size and what you have available. Unless what you have available is really awful. Go as discreet as you can. First off it's much better for post and second IF you are not using PZM's you can get weird phasing problems if you mix the mics together. With the separate tracks the post people (should) only use one of the tracks at a time so that won't be a problem.
Shotguns are probably not a good idea. Many done work well in that kind of environment and they are long and you don't have the space. THe KM 184's Dave mentioned are a LOT more conveniently sized and will probably sound better.
 
WOW! Was this a film school assignment which was "design the most difficult possible production then go shoot it"? LOL
 
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