"Location sound 101 - This is how it is"

J

Jon Oskar

Well-known member
After some grate information and help on this forum, i am now the proud owner of what is said to be a fairly decent sound kit. I bought the book, "Grate sound... Video" and listen to Ty's "Mic Tutorial VIdeo.mp4" which was allot of help. Also I read just about every thread on sound i could find. I have now started the practical face, trying out the gear and testing it.

My sound kit consists of:

Senheiser 416 (shot gun)
Octava 102a (hyper)
B6 Countryman (lawalier) Senheiser EW100 EN G2 (wireless transmitter/receiver)
Shure FP24 (mixer)
M-Audio Micro-track (recorder)
Rycot blimp (wind-protection)

All equipment was bought at:
Coffesound, EVS, Soundroom

I want to express my gratitude and appreciation to this great forum and last but not least a BIG THANK YOU to MattinSTL who was paramount in my decision what gear to buy.

After 6 months of research i have finally arrived and although it has been a grate experience i often along the way wished that there would have bin one comprehensive thread that addressed my situation which i think is no that unique.

I am a videographer in the process of preparing my first feature film which i am going to shoot on DV or HD, i am planing to screen it at festivals and if lucky it will go to DVD and if very lucky to a theatrical relies.

I don't plan on becoming a sound guru, but i want acceptable broadcast sound quality for my feature. Since i am not expecting a lot of finial backing for this nor near future projects i have decided that the better choice for me was to buy the equipment, learn how to use it and than try to find a sound-man assistant or student to operate for me on the shoot.

After a lot of thought and rethought and some premature purchases of equipment which i ended up reselling "new" but at a third of the price i payed for it, i came to the conclusion that Im to poor to buy cheep stuff and made the decision to go for proper equipment yet only the absolute minimum. I wanted something that can deal with the average situations in a girl meets boy film, dialog interior, dialog exterior, wired and wireless, boomed mic and lawalier. I think this kit represents this.

Now as MattinSTL pointed out, anyone can buy the gear, the trick is to learn how to use it. So this thread will be dedicated to just that. I plan over the next two weeks to test this equipment and simultaneously post the results here for scrutiny and comments. And like this try to get the best out of it and hopefully while doing this create a thread that can be of help to people that find them in the same situation as me.

What i hope to address here is the following:

What does good "location sound" sound like through your monitoring headphones when you are actually shooting?

How do i achieve good sound with the kit above?

How can i improve the sound from one test to the next?

What am i doing wrong?

How bad can sound be before it becomes a problem?

How do the different components of this kit preform?

What are the best settings?

(in order to take full advantage of this thread it is probably important to use pro monitoring headphones to listen to the tests)

I hope that the sound pro's here take an active part and help me make this thread a proper resource, but ask that they try to keep there advice simple, practical and hands on. When mentioning new equipment which has not bin explained earlier in the thread, it would be nice just to quickly note what it is and what it does.

And on a final note please keep the posts relevant to the subject matter of this thread, so we can stay on course and make it coherent.


best

Jon
 
This is location sound test #001

TEST#001


Senheiser 416
Shure FP24 (set to -30db, 80hz filter on)
M-Audio Micro-track (recorder)

(As i am new to this and this is the first test, it probably is rather stupid and can be approved up on, so please speak up so following tests will be better)

How was this? (1-10)
How can i improve it?
 
Jon just my two cents worth but I would record it hotter. When I was spending a lot of time in recording studios the one constant was burn it to tape hot. I would crank the levels until they are just under distortion level and then smooth it out. I'm not an expert by any means but I've been around a few. Another tip is to always record flat and add any EQ or effect elements later. Sounds pretty good though.
 
I think you could record it hotter, but I've found that my recorder doesn't like peaks above zero. This seemed odd to me since the fp24 is metered to +16 peaks... and keeping levels at or under zero from the mixer means the pots stay at about 9 o'clock... or slightly lower... with any mics I've used so far. Lowering the gain on the recorder and raising it on the fp24 made sound worse. I don't know why, but that's what happened.

I thought your recording sounded GREAT. If anybody is unsure of the MicroTrack, there's your proof. The thing is CLEAN. I think the room has some undesireable reverb and that you might want to try the same test with the Oktava hyper. If you do use the 416 then put on some headphones and find a better orientation in the room. Think of the mic like a flashlight in a room that's 100% mirrors. You can find a position and angle where reflections will be minimized. Don't forget to think about the sides and tail of the mic when you set it up. Try not to point the tail or tip of the mic into corners or areas where bass and reflections will build up. The best use of a shotgun (only a good one like this) indoors means good position in a good room and close to the mouth. Even still I feel a little stupid saying any of this because the recording sounds really good... just a little more room signature then I'd want if this was for a project.
 
timapter said:
nothing wrong with 80hz filters on a field recording...
Click to expand...

I leave the 80hz cut on ALL the time. Sometimes you may even want to go with the 160hz cut. It only takes a split-second to listen and make a choice.

Glad you mentioned that Tim! :thumbup: I can't believe I forgot to say the 80hz thing. Yeah I'd NEVER record flat... all there is under 80hz is handling noise anyway.
 
Thank you for your reply's. :thumbup:

As to test #001

As i mentioned before, the Shure FP24 (mixer) was set to -30db, does this mean the calibration is off. How loud should the reference tone be, can i calibrate the unit to it?
 
If you switch on the 1kHz tone the mixer is at 0db... then set your recorder at 0db and you should be perfect. If you want a safety zone then back the recorder off just a bit. Setting my rig up like this is how I got to the optimal setting on the 671 being "4" on the dial. At 0db on the fp24 and 671 the 671 is exactly halfway between 4 and 5. I experimented with some dialog recording... running the mixer hotter and the recorder lower... and vice versa... and this is definitely the best sound... which is comforting because it's how you should logically set it up anyway.

Since mic output varies you'll need to adjust accordingly. If you're doing sound for a broadcast production facility then go with -20db levels... for your own NLE I'd probably go for -12db and accept the occasional "kissing" of the 0db led. (this is watching the fp24)

Rather then simply set for 0db on both you might want to set the MicroTrack for -6db down from the fp24's 0db output. That way you can just watch the fp24's leds and keep the MicroTrack display off. Even with the 671's peak hold and dancing lcd screen I still prefer a couple flickering leds.

The signal is so clean it's super-easy to bring up the level if you need to. Setting up both machines to zero is fast and easy, but I'd be wary of running the recorder with no peak buffer.

When I ran sound straight to the DVX I wanted no more then 3 reds to light up, but this stuff is totally different. -12db is a hot signal that you can still make great use of in your NLE.
 
This is location sound test #002


TEST#002


Senheiser 416 (from 2 feet)
Shure FP24 (set to -20db, 80hz filter on)
M-Audio Micro-track

I brought up the levels slightly compared to test #001, also this test is done at 7 o'clock in the morning v.s test #001 which was done at 5 o'clock when there was no traffic. So this is representative as to what the noise level would be for most of the day.
Note that i have double glassing on the one window in this room, wood floors, sealing is 9 feet, and i am on the 3rd floor, the building is situated on a busy corner.

The mic has so far bin sitting in front of me, but i have spoken with my head angled down wards towards the floor, effectively bringing the mic in to a similar position as it would be if boomed from above.

Comments???
 
This is location sound test #003

TEST#003


Octava 102a (from 2 feet, no wind protection)
Shure FP24 (levels set to -20db, 80hz filter on)
M-Audio Micro-track (recorder)

Same conditions as in test #002
 
This is location sound test #004

TEST#004

Octava 102a (from 2 feet, no wind protection, -10db filter)
Shure FP24 (levels set to -20db, 80hz filter on)
M-Audio Micro-track (recorder)

I tried out the -10db filter, doesn't sound as nice with it, not quite sure what it does ore what it's purpose is, but it has bin tested for the record.

Same conditions as in test #002
 
Tomorrow, i am planing to test out the Countryman B6 (lavaliere), wired and wireless. I read in some tread that it might be bad to connect the B6 directly to the Shure FP24, mine is a wired XLR version which has bin modified by inserting a "brake" with a 14'' jack which fits in to the Senheiser G2 unit.

As for the power settings on the Shure FP24, any ideas??? It would be a bummer to ruin the mic? Can i just plug it in the same way as my Senheiser 416???
 
Matt as far as the Shure FP24 is concerned, when i put the reference tone on, the LED's are at 0db, so i guess all is OK. After some research at taperssection.com specific to the Micro-track i came across THIS

It basically is an custom made unbalanced cable to feed the signal from the mixer to the recorder as supposing a balanced signal is to hot for the Micro-track. I have followed this like a blind mann, so i have no idea if this is right, but I made this cable as described and it seems to be working fine so far. This means also that i have put the levels on the Micro-track to 0db and control them instead on the mixer. The problem with the Micro track is that it does not even have any numbers on the level meters, beside the fact that there seem to be allot of bugs with the Micro-tracks meeter itself. So this seemed to be the way that makes the most sense, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt siad
"Since mic output varies you'll need to adjust accordingly. If you're doing sound for a broadcast production facility then go with -20db levels... for your own NLE I'd probably go for -12db and accept the occasional "kissing" of the 0db led. (this is watching the fp24)"

Why should i have a hotter signal for my NLE than broadcast production? How does this relate to feature films? R you saying i should actually record at different levels for different types of production? Why is that?

thank you

Jon
 
Mr. Durden, this are just approximate prices, you should have Coffesound, EVS and Sound-room send you a proper quote. Although on a side note, EVS should definitely hire more staff as it was a little annoying to have to wait two weeks and 300 phone calls for a quote when you wanted to spend 3K, beside that they are friendly, prices are competitive, advice professional and it seems in the spirit of this forum to support those that support us, oh yea and there is a "thing" like the "DVXUSER" discount, but i guess there is also the friendly costumer discount if you ask for it, seems like it works out to just about the same. :thumbsup:

Senheiser 416 - 1050$
Octava 102a (with hypercap)- 165$
B6 Countryman (with modification) - 370 $
Senheiser EW100 EN G2 (wireless transmitter/receiver) - 599$
Shure FP24 (used but as new) - 450$
M-Audio Micro-track - 350$
Rycote blimp (wind-protection) - 650$

Total 3400$

Not included are the following and those prices are just an average, as there is some choice, wher in the abow there is little.

Sound bag (150)
memory card for recorder (150)
cables and adapters (100)
boom pole (250)
headphones (100)
Shipping (?)

Total 750$

Grand total 4150$ Auch! :angry:
 
stay with 16/48 thats good enough if you don't have to much storage , until now every one were happy with the dats , for sfx run higher sample and rate for ability change speed
 
From what I've been told production houses want a -20db signal. I know that sounds way low... but that's what I've been told several times.

I like to work with a hotter signal in the NLE, but avoid clips... so I go with -12db so far. That may change in the future.

George there is a pro and hopefully he will clear this up for certain. Hint hint.
 
My ratings on how the clips sound (I'm not at my regular computer, so the speakers are rather bad) are from best to worst

3>4>2>1

Although you're compensating for the angle of attack of the mic (by tilting your head down), I think you're getting more reflections off the wood floor by doing it this way.

Still in all, sounds real good.
 
might be reference ton at -20 and the peaks at -10 dbfs , that the regullar for straight for broadcast levels
for drama which always has better audio root you can go hotter occasionally on recording
to go to much low and be on the safe side is not doing any better to s/n ratio
with 24 bit recording it might be enouth run -12 for the top since you have grater dynamic range.
the -12 reference usially used for already compressed signal so you can run for full resolution ,usially its not working with dialog dynamics .

set your 0dbu tone from mix pre to -16 dbfs ( run the ton before on -20 only that the editors will not readjust your settings since they usially dont read what you write on the cassette 0DBU=-16FBFS so write 0=-20dbfs )
ride the peak to hit +6,+8 on your mixer and set your limiter for + 10 - for broadcast applications -
for drama you can ride these levels atleas 5 db up and set the limiter at +12,14
 
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