location audio help

T

trueindie

Active member
Decision between two guys


Guy 1: Superior on Paper
System: Fusion 10 + DPA 4017B-R


He is usually hired as a mixer and not a boom operator.
He wants to use only a boom and no lavs. He says its overkill given my schedule. Also, he says, it's only the Americans who want 10 iso tracks. He wants to give ma a boom track and a mono-mix.


Guy 2: SD 664 + mkh 416
He is green. Has only worked on shorts so far. He wants to be involved in a feature. He wants to give me 4 separate tracks if I want.


I'm only paying $250 per day. Guy1 is an IATSE member and also will confirm with me if he can guarantee me the days I want.


A little bit more info on Guy1. He initially told me that he didn't see why I would need lavs in such a controlled environment (by the way, he is the only sound guy who I talked to who'd read the whole script). But at the end he added that he could add a couple of lectronics wireless lavs for an additional $100 per day. I didn't get that part. How does that jive with the idea that I didn't need any lavs?


Any advice on how to think about this would be appreciated.

My schedule for the feature can be found here: http://thegirlwithoutasong.com/wp/calendar/
spans from October 27 through Nov 7
 
Are they wired lavs or wireless? If wireless, are you sure there's no interference source around? Wireless lavs can be victims of invisible noise interference, even in "controlled" environments. I use wired lavs whenever possible.

Can you ask guy 1 to do lavs-only and no boom for no extra cost? I'm just a stupid American but would prefer to have a track for each sound source, whenever possible. If he says no, I'd lean towards guy 2. Seems more flexible, less cocky. Take your production seriously and go with the best you can possibly get. Use your gut instincts.
 
@David Jones. I was seeking some advice on how to make a decision between the two given the info.

@Lowell Niles. No need to get upset and take things personally. hahah
 
trueindie said:
@David Jones. I was seeking some advice on how to make a decision between the two given the info.
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Well to be honest your info is on the limited side.

We are not privy to information needed to help make a decision.

Both have a mixer/recorder and a good exterior location microphone, but no other mention of kit.

We have no idea the complexity of the shoot, or the locations.

We also have no clue about your editorial workflow, time restraints or the budget. But given the fact that you only have $250 a day for production audio including kit, I'm going to guess your post budget is just as low.

Seriously, how can someone on the Internet who was not in the meetings pick?
 
I would hesitate to take advice from someone who doesn't know if lectrosonic lavs are wireless or not...

As a post person, so the one who would end up with those tracks, I'm all about quality. I have had shows come in where some newbie recorded tons of tracks and ALL of them sucked. I personally have no problem at all getting a single track, if it's done well. It actually takes more experience to get a bunch of decent tracks since you have to monitor it all or you end up with the kind of junk I have seen.

Also if you hand post 10 tracks they have to listen to ten tracks and then pick one. You are adding a bunch of time to the dialog edit that is a waste, unless you need it.

That is the big catch. I would probably be happier having the experienced guy run more tracks than the inexperienced guy.

The flip side is that you can get folks who are so jaded and are just doing your low budget epic as beer money and don't put in the effort. Since your experienced guy read the entire script and the other one didn't... That says a lot. One guy working way under rate took the time to read the script so he could give you an opinion based on the needs of the shoot. The inexperienced guy didn't. He is just assuming that if he wires everyone up he's covered.


But as David pointed out anything we say is really shooting blind.
 
You will likely not find anyone very experienced for $250, and with equipment.. highly unlikely.
An experienced pro with a POS H4n would record better sound than a newb with a giziilion tracks w/ SD preamps and Lectros, ect.
 
Yes, $250/day for an experienced pro with equipment package is low. But not that low. For many Fox TV series, and that's spread to other networks, the basic package rate is $1750 a week (Los Angeles), which divided by 5 is $350, and a lot of sound people were dismayed, but it's just the way it is these days. So on a tiny indie project $250 a day for a guy and his equipment, if they're between jobs and want to pick up a few bucks and love your project, you could get. Otherwise, if a paying job comes along, they won't take your $250/day - I'm talking pros, of course, because guys who are just trying to get established might do it for free, but of course you get what you pay for. My philosophy is skimp elsewhere, but not on sound.
 
OldCorpse said:
Yes, $250/day for an experienced pro with equipment package is low. But not that low. For many Fox TV series, and that's spread to other networks, the basic package rate is $1750 a week (Los Angeles), which divided by 5 is $350, and a lot of sound people were dismayed, but it's just the way it is these days. So on a tiny indie project $250 a day for a guy and his equipment, if they're between jobs and want to pick up a few bucks and love your project, you could get. Otherwise, if a paying job comes along, they won't take your $250/day - I'm talking pros, of course, because guys who are just trying to get established might do it for free, but of course you get what you pay for. My philosophy is skimp elsewhere, but not on sound.
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That's crazy… $350/day WITH gear. BUT the rates in LA typically seem low anyway because of the over abundance of people(camera, audio, etc.). For ENG audio, I pay my guys $400-$450 using my gear. Guys with gear typically bill $550-$650 and more for a basic package.
 
That's a REALLY low rate. Most good experienced union guys would not take this gig unless they had nothing better to do, which is unlikely. If I knew the peoples' names I might be able to help you...I know a ton of people, but I would imagine you don't want to give those out in a public forum.

Not knowing the type of shoot or the script, it's impossible to say if a boom is going to be enough. Experienced sound mixers/boom ops can get what they need with just a boom as long as you shoot properly (don't have a million cameras rolling at once with wide and tight happening at the same time). I was on the set of The Walking Dead and they were using just one boom. Lavs are nice to have as a backup, but that costs extra.

If you want I can PM you names of people in your area of people I'd recommend, but their rates will be MUCH higher.
 
The standard rate in LA last time I was around was $650/ day Plus extra for equipment. When we did an add with a full package that came to $1,200 for the day.

In Detroit (not exactly the cash rich city it used to be) production rate is typically $600 - $750 including the package.

$350 would barely cover IA minimum hourly, unless the union has dropped rates a LOT in the last six years.
 
Noiz2 said:
The standard rate in LA last time I was around was $650/ day Plus extra for equipment. When we did an add with a full package that came to $1,200 for the day.

In Detroit (not exactly the cash rich city it used to be) production rate is typically $600 - $750 including the package.

$350 would barely cover IA minimum hourly, unless the union has dropped rates a LOT in the last six years.
Click to expand...


Please read this thread, starting a few posts down, there's a long discussion of rates:

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F22486-standard-gear-packages%2F
 
They are talking about the rates for "packages", not labor. Other than the folks from Australia who mentioned labor and gear.

So the $350 a day is just the equipment package. The labor rate would be on top of that and depending on budget should range from around $35 to $65 per hour, so normal 12 hr day that is $560 - $1,040 Making the all inclusive day rate $910 - $1,390.
Quite a bit over $250/ day.

OP, good for paying something. No/low can end up paying a lot lower than that. The rates above are for shows with a decent budget.
 
It's low by film with a budget standards but on no/low???

Rates also vary location to location so depending on where he is this may not be too bad. Or he has hit a dead time so folks are cooling their heels and a small gig might be acceptable at a low rate. And the pro read the script so I'm guessing he thought it was a decent show.

A good script and a director you like can sometimes get you a very good discount, assuming you really don't have the budget.
 
The thing about a gear package is that many (most?) sound folk don't like to work with gear they don't own, because they may either not know that particular gear, or not know if it's in good condition. So when you hire a sound person, you pretty much hire their gear, unless the sound person goes to the rental place and picks whatever it is they need/want for the job. Therefore, doesn't it make sense to always assume that when you hire a sound person, you're also hiring their gear package? Or am I misunderstanding here? Because the problem from a no-budget indie point of view, is that they often already have (often dodgy) gear they bought along the way and may want the sound person to use that, instead. Of course, the standard advice in that case is "don't buy gear, just hire the sound person and their gear", which makes sense, but is not realistic in all scenarios... for example, I'm doing a short starting next week, and for that I've bought a bunch of sound gear - I can't afford to hire a sound person, and so must hack it myself + friends. So now I have a bunch of gear (in which I've invested a few thousand), but if one day I want to hire a sound person, all that gear is useless, because they're liable to say "sorry, I don't know or use a DR-60D and an AT875r, I use my own gear". Meanwhile, if I'm shooting my shorts, I've got to have sound gear (and not able to afford a pro sound person). That's the problem. That's why it's a question about a day rate - can you break it down by "how much will you charge per day with and without your gear". If all you can afford is $250/day, then it doesn't matter, because if you can't get the gear for it, you're out of luck if the sound person refuses to work with gear you supply (as is his/her reasonable right).
 
Thanks for all the input.
I went with the younger guy. He was able to provide references for people, who I was able to talk to. He'd worked with both of them on multiple projects.

@OldCorpse. I myself had invested a few thousand in sound gear, but the problem with sound always was that whoever decided to be a boom operator never really cared that much about sound, and if there were any issues with sound, I never knew about it until I was at my edit. Whenever I used someone who was an actual sound recordist with gear, and not a filmmaker who also does sound, I had awesome sound. The guy I'd used previously, is working on a project in the US. So I was scrambling to find another person.

Also, I think that advice of don't invest in gear, but hire the sound person, is pretty good advice. I can't keep track of everything that's going wrong on a shoot. If the sound person can keep track of whatever is going wrong with the sound and alerts me in a timely fashion, then that's one thing I really don't have to worry about. And I'd pay to not have that headache any day.
 
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