Location audio for part improvised sitcom production

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Ian Stark

Active member
I'm working up to producing a pilot for a single camera fly-on-the-wall/verite-style situation comedy in the general style of The Office, The Thick of It, Veep, Modern Family etc. It's about a local community group and their struggle to stage an event in the middle of a financial crisis. This is entirely self-funded and, as you'll imagine, is therefore on a very low budget :-)

Some of the dialogue is to be improvised during the shoot and I am wondering how best this should be recorded where there are a number of speakers involved. An example situation is a committee meeting being held in a pub with six or seven people around a large table, potentially speaking over each other. Another example is a concert rehearsal where one actor may be at the front of the venue with several others dotted around a large room. Given that the sound recordist won't necessarily be able to predict who is about to speak next, what techniques could be used to get decent audio.

The end product is to be more like The Thick of It than Modern Family, i.e. handheld, imperfect lighting, untidy cuts, abrupt camera moves etc, but I want the audio to be as good as it can be. The only fully controlled scenes will be cutaway interviews with characters throughout the show.

My 'real' job is in corporate video production where (most of the time) dialogue is coming from one person at a time so this is a new challenge for me! I possess a single radio mic, a shotgun mic (which can also be wireless but not at the same time as it uses the same receiver!) and a Zoom H6. What else might I need?

I appreciate any advice.
 
Well, I was hoping for some friendly technical advice rather than righteous preaching. OK, I've clearly come to the wrong place. See ya.

(And just so you know why I'm not overly impressed with your wise guidance, this is a little amateur weekend project with a group of friends who are trying to do something fun and learn some new skills in the process. We're not pitching it to anyone and we're not hiring in professionals).
 
Why take the hump? It's so common for people to have good ideas and then under estimate the costs. It's pretty simple. You do a proper budget, raise the money and then make it. You never said it was a fun amateur project - you said you were producing a pilot! If you said that good audio and perhaps other proper production techniques were not important, then we'd have responded in a different way.

I do think the sound people need to be in early to state their needs. If its going to be in a live music venue at some point where people are actually playing as opposed to miming, then sound is a major component. All your locations need kit. if there is any room sound that wiil be captured then editing will be a nightmare on any distant technique, so individual mics and perhaps multitrack recording are going to be needed. You need the budget to hire in if you don't own. I follow a few firms on youtube who make regular short programmes on subjects I like, and while the content is good, the images decent, audio is sometimes good, and sometimes awful. If you need 6 mics then any single mic technique will be less good - simple as that. How worse, depends on so many things. You might find a decent audio person will duck out if they cannot get the equipment they need - not wanting to do a bad job.

If the idea is good, the people keen and you want to do it properly, then sound needs budget. If it was possible to get good audio in the circumstances you describe without spending money, everyone would do it, and they don't!
 
Paul, can you not create a pilot episode for something that isn't intended to be broadcast? I didn't consider it remotely important that I spelled out that it was amateur, on the basis that basic principles would be the same regardless of whether it's for fun or for broadcast!

I was (or so I thought) innocently asking how other, more experienced people go about a particular task and I didn't expect to basically be told to give it up as a fool's errand. Being lectured to by someone who tells me I'm throwing my money away because I'm not following accepted commercial practice and someone who seems to be affronted at the fact that I am not hiring a professional? At least you bothered to give a little technical advice (for which I thank you).

Sorry, Paul, I guess I'd got used to a friendlier and more helpful approach to basic questions on some of the other boards at DVX and on other forums and being made to feel foolish and inadequate wasn't high on my list this evening. Are you surprised I got the hump?
 
Even after being a prickly, snarky person, you will probably still get excellent advice here. Those were sincere and valuable responses from professionals that really know what they are doing. They can't read your mind. So if they didn't give you the answer you were looking for, then have some patience and clarify your question.

I expect they don't care if you are not coming back, but if you do, and you take that chip off your shoulder, you will probably get some excellent advice.
 
With improv you don't get a second chance.

Ian Stark said:
What else might I need?
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A wireless lav for each person speaking.

Someone to swing the boom.

A mixer/recorder with enough channels to handle all of the needed mics, wireless or otherwise.

That's the gear. You can rent it all. If your budget is restricted we can discuss workarounds.

What do you really need? Someone competent and (hopefully) professional to handle all of the production audio duties.


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You said PILOT, which implies a certain amount of budget and the need for quality, and you claim to be a professional (corporate video production) in the biz yourself, so set yourself up for the "professional" solution to your audio situation. I read your post as "Hi! I work in corporate video production, but mostly solo speakers or small groups in a controlled situations. I'm shooting a pilot and need help with the audio." My initial response would be approximately like the others; "you're a professional, so hire a professional."

Now, if you had said - "I'm a weekend warrior shooting a 'pilot' for fun. There will be some improv á la 'The Thick of It'" My budget is just about nil. Any advice?" - you would have gotten different responses.
 
Hey, give me a break! I am really regretting asking what I honestly believed to be a simple request for some friendly technical guidance.

I might be a newcomer to this board but I have been a contributor and consumer of forum advice for many, many years. I don't mind people not fully understanding what I was asking and going off on a tangent, but I'm sorry I don't see any value in the answer 'pitch before pilot' and then the very lazy '+1 then hire a professional'. I would have thought patience and clarification runs both ways, particularly when someone is posting on the board for the first time or asking what might be a naive question. Maybe it's me that can't read minds because those replies came across (to me) as 'run along and leave it to the grown-ups'.

Clearly I'm not getting something here so I'll just back off, apologise for upsetting people and seek warmer shores . . .
 
I don't frequent any of the other boards here on DVXU. Here at Location Sound/Post Audio forum, however, many of the participants are working professionals who graciously contribute their limited time to assist others, so many answers will be terse. Hey, they're geniuses, not mind readers! So thoroughly but succinctly describing the situation goes a loooooooooong way to getting the answers that you want.
 
Did you read the stickies at the top of this forum?
Have you done any research on how unscripted "reality" shows handle audio (or even on-location scripted drama)?
They didn't get the sound you are hearing by having a couple of inexperienced blokes throw a couple of mics around.
There is quite possibly MORE sound gear (booms, wireless, mixers, recorders, etc.) than video/lighting in those situations.
Have you considered getting/finding/viewing an instructional video like: http://dvxuser.com/articles/dvxshop/SoundDVD/

Sorry, but the perceived naivete of your question makes the skin crawl on many of us with years of experience.
It may come as no surprise that we see exactly this same question repeated year-in and year-out.
It ain't nearly as easy as people make it look. If you want quality audio, that is.
But if you are willing to settle for "home-movies" quality, that is a different matter.

Yes, I have been on the receiving end of the same kind of interaction in areas where I am a rank amateur and don't even know what questions to ask.
That old axiom is pretty accurate: Quality, Speed, Budget, you can only choose TWO.

Yes, there are ways of working around the "conventional thinking".
But it requres careful analysis of the situation (conditions, resources, schedule, etc.)
It doesn't work as a broad, generic question.
 
Bob, I'm grateful for your considered comments and I just wanted to point out that my last post was in response to an earlier reply, not yours.

Not to labour the point, but I thought I had clearly given all the relevant facts to support my question. Yes, I accept that responses may well be terse - but there's terse and there's condescending. I don't see any place where I asked for advice on any production aspect other than audio. What makes this all even more unpleasant for me is that I was actually just curious about the subject - this project is some months away, but I was just idly wondering what we would need to think about nearer the time.

And, again, from a production point of view, even though this is what I have innocently described as a pilot (I hope it will be the first of several 'episodes') we are all doing this as a fun learning experience . . . but we still want to aim to produce the best end result that we can. We can throw some cash at it (it's low budget, not no budget) and within reason hire whatever gear we need above what we all own, but we don't want to hire in a professional sound guy - we want to find out how to do it ourselves - how else do we learn?! I worked on a cross-training programme at the BBC many years ago, where producers/directors of one genre of programme were introduced to other genres, e.g. a news producer would learn about sitcom production, or a period drama director would learn about variety shows. Everyone on the courses left feeling that they had developed new skills and approaches that they could successfully apply in their 'proper' roles. That's the rationale behind why we are running this exercise - almost everyone involved is a professional in some way, in production, writing, acting, music composition, etc (interestingly no sound professionals though!) but none of us have ever turned our hands to producing a sitcom. We thought it would be fun to learn how.
 
It comes down to microphone selection and placement. As you say, it is easy enough for a corporate talking-head video. But an unscripted, multi-camera, live-shot, seven speaking parts in a public place is something even professionals wouldn't consider doing. Those are typically done in a controlled environment where you can tell the extras to maintain complete silence, and you can shoot each angle separately in order to optimize the lighting and microphone placement.

Or, you could rent/hire half a dozen wireless systems and get an 8-channel recorder because nobody is going to be able to mix something like that live on the set. As it happens Zoom has just released a very interesting piece of gear, their F8, 8-channel field recorder. Of course, you need at least a dedicated and experienced sound person, and preferably a couple more assistants, at least one with some decent boom experience.
 
Ian Stark said:
Well, I was hoping for some friendly technical advice rather than righteous preaching. OK, I've clearly come to the wrong place. See ya.

(And just so you know why I'm not overly impressed with your wise guidance, this is a little amateur weekend project with a group of friends who are trying to do something fun and learn some new skills in the process. We're not pitching it to anyone and we're not hiring in professionals).
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"I appreciate any advice."

Well apparently not by the flame under your bum!

Do you know how many times people come here wanting advice about filming a pilot so they can try to get a series aired?

That is why you got the reply you got from me.

Ian, where in your first post do you say that this is a little amateur weekend project being done by a group of friends for fun and to learn new skills?

The reason I replied like I did was that after nearly 40 years of doing this, producing a pilot means shooting the first episode of a TV series.

And to back up what I thought, Here is what you wrote..... "I'm working up to producing a pilot for a single camera fly-on-the-wall/verite-style situation comedy in the general style of The Office, The Thick of It, Veep, Modern Family etc." All TV shows! Get my drift? You being a corporate video professional with a reel full of high end clients also pushed my thinking in that direction.

Remember it was you who was vague in your initial question that prompted the answers you have gotten.
You could have gone into detail, but you didn't. What if somebody asked you... How much does it cost for a corporate video?

Maybe you should re-read your initial post over again disregarding the fact that you wrote it, and anything you know about your project, and see what you get from the question.

I'm sorry I pissed you off.

All the best!

Dave


 
You could rent some zfr300 (or similar products) and wire up everybody and forget about them till the end of the day. My guess is the results will not be what you want but that's for you to decide. A rental company may let you take one on a test spin on their property and that may give you a little bit of an idea the challenges are of getting acceptable sound. The product described is made for the reality shows where they set them and forget it (not the preferred method by a long way but sometimes necessary) . the Down side and there are many 1 no monitoring, so if clothes are rustling and making noise you won't know about it. 2 battery could go out , mic could go out, talent can turn it off drop it in toilet, could have unfixable buzz in line. Could eject SD card. This is really a set it and pray situation but that may be what you want. Keep in mind that the same skill set of a good sound pro is needed to wire each actor. This method has been used successfully used in low budget narrative films, usually for a few lines but some attempts have led to unsatisfactory results. With the proliferation of wireless this is rarely used these days. Whatever you decide I would strongly recommend extensive testing before the first day of the shoot. Unfortunately rental with many actors may not save you much money over hiring a pro.
 
Ian Stark said:
Some of the dialogue is to be improvised during the shoot and I am wondering how best this should be recorded where there are a number of speakers involved. An example situation is a committee meeting being held in a pub with six or seven people around a large table, potentially speaking over each other. Another example is a concert rehearsal where one actor may be at the front of the venue with several others dotted around a large room. Given that the sound recordist won't necessarily be able to predict who is about to speak next, what techniques could be used to get decent audio.
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What you want, is perhaps the most difficult thing to do. Audio pros in Hollywood would have trouble with this, and they'd have to throw 10s of thousands of dollars worth of equipment at it just to get mediocre results.

People look at the Robert Altman movies like M.A.S.H and it all looks so easy and spontaneous. Yet, it's some of the most rehearsed and choreographed movie making you'll find. Not just the actors. The sound guys are in the thick of the rehearsals, and their movements are choreographed to work with the actors. And yes, backwards and in heels ala Ginger Rogers, but instead of the elegant gowns and heels, with boom poles overhead wielded with precision accuracy, while avoiding all the stuff on the floor and the moving actors.

People look at night club scenes in movies and it looks like they recorded it right in the thick of the party. In fact, the band wasn't making a sound, and neither was a single person in the crowd. Not even when they set a glass down on a table. Not even when the stiletto heels (hush heels) walk by. The only thing recorded on set in real time is the dialog. Nothing else. All the rest, the band, the crowd (walla), the clinking glasses, ringing phones, click of stilettos, all of it, is added in post. Not because anyone wants to work this way, but because it's the only way to get clear dialog.

I'm just trying to set your expectations here. Your desire to "get decent audio" is admirable, but given your circumstances, it's highly improbable. Lacking a sound crew, about the only thing you can do is hire sufficient equipment to put a lavalier on every speaker in any given scene, record all the speakers onto their own separate tracks, mix it in post, and hope for the best.

I don't actually expect you to believe any of this. I've found that anyone dead set on working this way (you are not the first one to try spontaneous improvised dialog from multiple actors, played out in public places) has a seemingly genetic imperative to do it their way. They seem to only learn through the old School of Hard Knocks. So, off you go then. If nothing else, you and your mates should have fun earning your bruises.
 
Paul F said:
Even after being a prickly, snarky person, you will probably still get excellent advice here. Those were sincere and valuable responses from professionals that really know what they are doing. They can't read your mind. So if they didn't give you the answer you were looking for, then have some patience and clarify your question.

I expect they don't care if you are not coming back, but if you do, and you take that chip off your shoulder, you will probably get some excellent advice.
Click to expand...
+++1
Very snarky person, from his first response to his second response to even his third response.
 
I'd like to apologise for upsetting so many people here. It wasn't my intention.

I am absolutely not a prickly or snarky person by nature. I come from forums where it's generally not considered the done thing to be so blunt to an obvious newcomer to the group and that if you can't or don't want to answer a question, you shouldn't answer at all. David's response was, of course, quite right - it just didn't answer any question I had asked and my kneejerk reaction was to read it as being unnecessarily preachy. I sincerely apologise for jumping down your throat, David, and I'm also sorry if I continued to come across as ungrateful or rude. I was just frustrated at some of the subsequent comments.

I genuinely thought I had given sufficient information for a constructive response and I didn't even consider the fact that it was important to know if it was a project for fun or for broadcast. My mistake. I assumed that fundamentally the technical approach would be the same. Again, my apologies for not making it clear up front.

That said, for anyone still interested, I'd like to explain a little further about what we're trying to achieve.

When I mentioned improvisation, what I meant was that there may be occasions where an actor throws something in that isn't scripted and that this may be spoken over another actor's dialogue. Essentially the whole thing is scripted and I didn't mean to imply anything beyond occasional improvised lines (although I was and am curious to know how this is catered for in broadcast TV productions). I would hope that any such improv would come through in rehearsals and could be worked into the script, but I would like to try and cater for spontaneity, hence the original question. In The Thick Of It there is an end credit to the cast for 'Additional material provided' as a nod to improvised dialogue. I'd like to give our cast the same latitude for occasional spontaneous outbursts. I want the end result to look and feel as real as possible and not overly performed and that's the rationale behind choosing a video look, 100% handheld, mainly using available light with a minimum of augmentation, with a jumpy, quick edit. Possibly snarky. Haven't decided. The only exceptions to this will be cutaway interviews which will be controlled, filmic and properly lit. We don't expect to achieve broadcast quality audio, but we will still aim for that and see how far up the quality ladder we can get.

As for budget, I guess one man's low is another man's Hollywood funding. I consider this to be a low budget project, but most of the people involved on the production team are somewhat successful at what they do so we could, if required, throw in whatever cash is needed to achieve the best end result we can. We already own pretty much all the equipment we need, with the exception of any additional audio gear, but obviously the law of diminishing return needs to be considered.

Although this whole exercise is primarily for fun, as I mentioned earlier we are viewing it as an opportunity to learn new skills and to try our hand at challenges that we wouldn't usually encounter in our regular production jobs. We naturally expect to pay for hands-on training so I guess the suggestion of hiring a sound pro is not a bad one, in that he or she could act as an advisor. What we don't want to do is to hire a pro to do the job for us. That way we don't get our hands dirty and we don't learn as much.

Although it's early days we already have 6 production crew, 5 central characters and 6 supporting characters signed up to this project. The cast are almost all professionally trained actors and they are very, very funny and quick witted. We also have a local amateur theatre group providing the extras, and almost all locations are now identified and secured. Still lots to do, of course, but we are treating this as a serious project, even though it's a weekend kind of thing.

So, apologies once again for my earlier behaviour and thanks to all who have given solid advice and suggestions. Plenty to think about.
 
This type of programming is known as "mockumentary" and whilst it may be initially set-up you can generally see on most of the shows that there are only a few participants as trying to get 5-6 people co-ordinated to do it tends to be a disaster as they all end up just talking over each other.

This is all down to scripting and production and to try and attempt huge amounts of people will not be effective.

Look at all of the types of these programmes and even the best of the such as curb your own enthusiasm etc have only a few actors in any one scene.

Less is more as they say so unless you are going to do this like a staged production I think you will end up having problems shooting it never mind trying to record the audio.

If you do wish to have a go you will need a mic on every person as a boom will not be practical and you will then need to mutli track record it and also shoot it multi camera, a shed load of post production will then be needed to sort it all out and then you may have to re-shoot to cover any problems in the edit.

Programmes like Big Brother, The Hotel, The Salon, Geordie Shore, Goggle Box etc are all done this way and the best reality documentary 24 hours in A&E involves hundreds of cameras and thousands of pounds of resources but even then you tend to only have a few people featured at any one time.

In the thick of it W1a and The Office etc are all shot as scripted drama and mostly with a single camera or possibly two but there will be lots of rehearsal and blocking of shots before a camera is even run, an old ser called This Life was also a scripted drama shot single camera but what they did was run the scene lots of times to get alternative takes and angles etc. This takes a shed load of time and really good actors as they have to be able to re-create the scenes pretty close so they will be able to cut different takes together.

As for the term a pilot that tends to be for TV as others have said but if the pilot is OK it is usually transmitted, if you are pitching for a commission you should not waste your time throwing huge amounts of resources at it as a TV company will want a known production company to be involved.

I think you will be amazed at how much TV is actually set-up and programmes like Peter Andre etc tend to be staged so they know in advance the scenario and who is going to interact so that the cameras can at least follow each person for ease of editing.

Good luck but the more planning you do the easier it will be to shoot otherwise you will just end up with a load of rubbish that will not cut together and with people just talking over each other or worse not even on camera.

Of course you could try and be radical and creative and an actor friend of mine thought of doing a TV type show but blocked and set-up like a stage show. But there again look at sit coms and classic ser such as Fawlty Towers and Men Behaving Badly, they are basically stage shows as is Mrs Browns Boys and are shot as if on a stage but with multi cameras and boom mics to follow the action but once again you seldom get more than two or three people talking or interacting at any one time in each scene.

Oh and I think Spinal Tap was shot single camera with one mic on a boom to a Nagra as that was all that was available at the time but you need good actors who are able to improvise and follow the camera and set-up.

A friend did this a few years ago but it was all set-up so that the single camera and boom mic knew who was going to ad lib etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_tn1TiLOpE&feature=youtu.be
 
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