Live concert shoot, tips, tricks, basics, fundamentals

Wow great info, i really like all the equipment you recommended!

As for your recommendation to go more professional, do you mean camera's, or monitoring rig? I think some of the gear you recommended seem pretty professional for the prices?

Thanks


david335 said:
I would recommend datavideo products over the videonics. In my experience they last longer and are more reliable. My suggestion for a super budget rig would be along the lines of:

Switcher: Datavideo HS-500 Suitcase Studio - A budget unit but for the price it is solid. It includes monitor as well as a case and switcher.

Then for recorders you have a few options, If you are recording a number of gigs I recommend going tapeless.

Datavideo DN-300 Recorder A reliable desktop recorder that records to hard drive

If you want to record each of the streams individually you should buy however many cameras you have + 1 to record the final mix. Each unit has a loop-through so you can plug the raw feed into the recorder and then the output to the switcher.

For intercoms I like ear-tec. Their budget line works pretty well.
Eartec4 Simutalk 4G w/ Single Ear Headset

But I think that with a great audio rig you should really consider spending some more and getting a more professional rig.

Also on the camera tip I also would recommend that you consider the Canon XL2 along with this kit.
Camera: Canon XL2
Battery (1 or 2x per camera): Canon Battery
Zoom Control: Varizoom LANC Controller
Tripod: Personal Preference I like manfroto but I am sure that you know what you like.
Case: Again preference but I really like hard pelican cases for my gear and there is a custom xl2 insert

If you need anymore help feel free to pm me.
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The professional comment was mainly about the switcher. Although I prefer the xl2 to the DVX for live shoots they should both perform pretty well. What i mean is that the HS-500 switcher is alright but it isn't great. When you look at something like a Panasonic switcher the quality of image coming from the switcher is better, the switcher is more reliable, and the switcher will last you longer. The thing is though that this type of upgrade will cost many thousands more (more switcher cost, monitors or a multi-viewer, signal converters, etc).

Also I know that you said you are an audio engineer (that is where I started) but don't forget that you yourself need to have an array of your own mics to place. Most FOH guys won't put out things like audience mics so you need to make sure that you deal with that.

I forgot to bring it up earlier but make sure that all of your gear is on pure sin-wave generating UPS units, especially the recording units because if the hard drive recorders lose power before they can write the end of the file the video may be unrecoverable.

Sorry for the scatter brained-ness of this reply. If you want me to layout what you would need for the Panasonic switcher let me know.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...lti_Format_Video_Switcher.html#specifications
 
david335 said:
The professional comment was mainly about the switcher. Although I prefer the xl2 to the DVX for live shoots they should both perform pretty well. What i mean is that the HS-500 switcher is alright but it isn't great. When you look at something like a Panasonic switcher the quality of image coming from the switcher is better, the switcher is more reliable, and the switcher will last you longer. The thing is though that this type of upgrade will cost many thousands more (more switcher cost, monitors or a multi-viewer, signal converters, etc).

Also I know that you said you are an audio engineer (that is where I started) but don't forget that you yourself need to have an array of your own mics to place. Most FOH guys won't put out things like audience mics so you need to make sure that you deal with that.

I forgot to bring it up earlier but make sure that all of your gear is on pure sin-wave generating UPS units, especially the recording units because if the hard drive recorders lose power before they can write the end of the file the video may be unrecoverable.

Sorry for the scatter brained-ness of this reply. If you want me to layout what you would need for the Panasonic switcher let me know.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...lti_Format_Video_Switcher.html#specifications
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Gotcha,

We have our own full setup of mics, we use at our own practice spot which has a full monitor and FOH system, bigger than most local bars and clubs. So i for sure thought of that, still looking to get some better drum mics but you can never have too many :)

As for UPS can you recommend some brands? i know APC makes nice ones but thats one thing on my list i have not dug deep into was power stuff ( UPs, conditioners/ regulators etc...) But i will deff. have my full recording and video rig on back up power!

Thanks again
 
Keep in mind that micing a crowd requires different mics than making performers. I most often use either shotguns in larger venues or stereo mics in smaller venues or when I have less time to setup. When properly placed the shotguns sound a little better but in smaller spaces or when I don't have time for precision I have a few AT stereo mics that sound pretty good although they don't have as much throw as the shotguns.

Also I am sure that you have thought of this put if you are recording individual camera streams then you will need a distribution amp and maybe a signal converter so that each recorder can get the same audio fed to it. This will help immensely if you have to re-sync in post or if you need to look at the concert from one angle.

The only issue with some of this gear is that you can't sync the timecode off of master clock, this means that you have to get creative so that you don't have to try to guess the sync in post.
 
david335 said:
Keep in mind that micing a crowd requires different mics than making performers. I most often use either shotguns in larger venues or stereo mics in smaller venues or when I have less time to setup. When properly placed the shotguns sound a little better but in smaller spaces or when I don't have time for precision I have a few AT stereo mics that sound pretty good although they don't have as much throw as the shotguns.

Also I am sure that you have thought of this put if you are recording individual camera streams then you will need a distribution amp and maybe a signal converter so that each recorder can get the same audio fed to it. This will help immensely if you have to re-sync in post or if you need to look at the concert from one angle.

The only issue with some of this gear is that you can't sync the timecode off of master clock, this means that you have to get creative so that you don't have to try to guess the sync in post.
Click to expand...

Well im thinking for the cost of 1 of those DAT recorders i would just record the mixed video out from the switcher. 4K to basically just backup video and audio is alot. Is there any way to take the firewire or USB out of the camera to an external drive while filming?
 
You say that the additional recorders would "just be backing up video" but back-ups of everything are a crucial part of live production. Not backing up everything, esp. in a live situation is a big mistake. What are you going to do if your switcher or recorder dies during the show? What will you tell your client? In live work it is imperative that everything has a back-up and that critical functions have some form of redundancy.

4k to record the video is actually very cheap for video hardware. There are devices that you can plug into the firewire on the camera and record the output to a drive but a decent one of those devices it will still cost around $1100 per camera. With those on-camera devices you (the director) loses the ability to monitor the recorders and to make sure that they stay working. In a live situation (especially a concert) you want your camera men concentrating on getting the right shots not monitoring the recorders because chances are they will have to get the right shots as well as defend themselves and the camera from the concert-goers.

Keep in mind that for a live production rig cameras often make up less than 1/4 of the total budget. I just finished helping put together a $50k+ rig and the cameras for the whole system were less than $15k.
 
david335 said:
You say that the additional recorders would "just be backing up video" but back-ups of everything are a crucial part of live production. Not backing up everything, esp. in a live situation is a big mistake. What are you going to do if your switcher or recorder dies during the show? What will you tell your client? In live work it is imperative that everything has a back-up and that critical functions have some form of redundancy.

4k to record the video is actually very cheap for video hardware. There are devices that you can plug into the firewire on the camera and record the output to a drive but a decent one of those devices it will still cost around $1100 per camera. With those on-camera devices you (the director) loses the ability to monitor the recorders and to make sure that they stay working. In a live situation (especially a concert) you want your camera men concentrating on getting the right shots not monitoring the recorders because chances are they will have to get the right shots as well as defend themselves and the camera from the concert-goers.

Keep in mind that for a live production rig cameras often make up less than 1/4 of the total budget. I just finished helping put together a $50k+ rig and the cameras for the whole system were less than $15k.
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I understand the potential loss but i am the client and the band i work is as well, if video is lost we will record the next show and so on. I do agree they are very important but its alot of money thats all i was saying.

On another note can you tell me what you like about the XL2 over the DVX. I jsut got my first DVX today and although i agree its a great and very capable camera i was attracted to the XL2 and still am but maybe later in the year we will pick up 2 or 3? I jsut figured for the cost of 1 XL2 i can get 2 DVX. The only thing i feel it lacks is the lack of zoom, are there ways to get greater zoom with the DVX?

Thanks
 
I am gonna be honest here, I have used the xl2 and the dvx but the last time I used a dvx was a year or two ago and it was not on a live event. I like the xl2 for a number of reasons though. The lenses are great, the form factor works well for live events and if you want to go handheld for an interview or some in-moshpit action the form factor allows you to do that. On a similar note I find the ergonomics of the camera great. In live events you don't normally have time to worry about changing settings but with he wealth of physical controls on the xl2 I am able to adjust thing easily while concentrating on shooting. There is the technical comparison between the two, which I can't speak to because I haven't looked at it in years. In my opinion for event work the xl2 is a better camera.
 
david335 said:
I am gonna be honest here, I have used the xl2 and the dvx but the last time I used a dvx was a year or two ago and it was not on a live event. I like the xl2 for a number of reasons though. The lenses are great, the form factor works well for live events and if you want to go handheld for an interview or some in-moshpit action the form factor allows you to do that. On a similar note I find the ergonomics of the camera great. In live events you don't normally have time to worry about changing settings but with he wealth of physical controls on the xl2 I am able to adjust thing easily while concentrating on shooting. There is the technical comparison between the two, which I can't speak to because I haven't looked at it in years. In my opinion for event work the xl2 is a better camera.
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Cool thanks for the opinion, In a few months after working with the DVX and getting some good results im pretty sure we will be picking up 2-3 of the XL2. As i to see its benefits for live. Do you think in Post one could match the DVX footage with an XL2?

I read they compare almost exactly...

Thanks again for all the helpful post!
 
Again, no first hand experience trying to match them but I am sure that as long as they are properly setup prior to the gig to be as close as possible you won't see any issues.
 
You think by the end of the year it would be worth it to invest in a few XL2 or drop SD and find something HD with native 16:9?

Thanks
 
If you want to go HD you should start now becuase HD gear is not inexpensive. HD gear increases the cost but most of it is compatible with SD. If you want HD I would recommend something like this:
Mixer: Panasonic AG-MX70 - A decent switcher that will do HD or SD.
Recorder: Datavideo DN-500 - I haven't used this one but it looks like it would do the job and should be reliable.
Monitors: You can get HD rack mounted or professional monitors but they are not inexpensive. It also works to just get a bunch of the smallest cheapest HD tvs that you can find for as little as $250 per monitor. Because the mixer dosn't have a multi-viewer you need to have one per camera + 1 for preview.

Also for HD cams I just finished a project with the Canon XL-H1 and I really liked how it went. B&H has them used for just under $3900 which is a steal in my opinion.

If you decide to go HD now you could save a little bit of money and get a switcher that I like more, the Focus Enhancements HX-1. In which case you would need to get monitors that have either HD-SDi or you would need a converter to convert hd-sdi to hdmi or component.
 
david335 said:
If you want to go HD you should start now becuase HD gear is not inexpensive. HD gear increases the cost but most of it is compatible with SD. If you want HD I would recommend something like this:
Mixer: Panasonic AG-MX70 - A decent switcher that will do HD or SD.
Recorder: Datavideo DN-500 - I haven't used this one but it looks like it would do the job and should be reliable.
Monitors: You can get HD rack mounted or professional monitors but they are not inexpensive. It also works to just get a bunch of the smallest cheapest HD tvs that you can find for as little as $250 per monitor. Because the mixer dosn't have a multi-viewer you need to have one per camera + 1 for preview.

Also for HD cams I just finished a project with the Canon XL-H1 and I really liked how it went. B&H has them used for just under $3900 which is a steal in my opinion.

If you decide to go HD now you could save a little bit of money and get a switcher that I like more, the Focus Enhancements HX-1. In which case you would need to get monitors that have either HD-SDi or you would need a converter to convert hd-sdi to hdmi or component.
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Like i said ill go the SD route for this year and get familiar with directing my guys and filming myself, learning composition and how lighting affects my results before i jump in head over heels info HD and have more expensive crap than i know how to even use :) I love the canon Xh-a1 they look awesome and to be honest i prefer to buy second hand if possible, save some money and try and get a good deal and good equipment as well! So thats why i figure wait and in 8 months i can get some of those canons for around $1600-2000 used.

Thanks
 
Well the $3900 is used, the cameras have been discontinued. But I encourage you to plan for the long run because spending the $5000 on SD equipment now only to turn around and have to spend $7000-$10000(numbers off the top of my head) in 8 months seems a little silly especially because the second hand market for SD production equipment is quickly drying up.
 
david335 said:
Well the $3900 is used, the cameras have been discontinued. But I encourage you to plan for the long run because spending the $5000 on SD equipment now only to turn around and have to spend $7000-$10000(numbers off the top of my head) in 8 months seems a little silly especially because the second hand market for SD production equipment is quickly drying up.
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Ill never sell our SD stuff, its good for personal use. I can see a use for the stuff for a while. If i were to invest in all that video switching stuff for SD i can see your point. Getting a switcher than can do SD and HD would be good, the communication stuff is going be used SD or HD. Plus there will always be kids that want the SD stuff and will almost never be able to afford HD... But thats if i wanted to sell off in 8 months i odnt see i need to sell it, maybe rent it out or something? You make very good points and i see the benefits of HD, i just personally dont have any problem working in SD for a bit until i feel comfortable spending 10k on HD stuff.
 
I took a quick look at the mx-50 and while I have never used the mixer I could see it being a good piece of equipment but it is an old piece of equipment. Personally I would rather spend the extra cash and get the datavideo kit. It is broadcast quality mixer but I would be concerned that a rig built around the mx-50 would be rather large as well and not nearly as portable as the datavideo suitcase rig. Also I would be concerned that with an older mixer you might run into unforeseen problems. I guess I would advise against it, especially if it is your first mixer.
 
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For a live concert whats better? 60i or 30P? We will be using 2 DVX and a pdx10 (which does 60i by default) So i want the footage to match. If i shoot 30P with the DVX's i can convert the PDX from 60i to 30fps. So which would be best? 60i or 30p?
 
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