Lights for high school project

M. Gilden

M. Gilden

Canon DSLR Moderator
I was asked to help a local high school trying to make a small production for their senior project. They asked me to recommend gear, so I went with a Sony A6000, some basic lenses, a Zoom H4N and Rode NTG2 on a pole, basic entry level stuff. I need some help with lights though.
I got them a set of 3 LED panels and stands so that they could move them around with batteries and light angles in the classroom, but they are finding that they want to light larger spaces and possibly a dance routine (I'm guessing that would happen in an auditorium of sorts), and the LEDs aren't bright enough, understandably.

What can I suggest to them on a SERIOUSLY LOW BUDGET. I know, ultimately you get what you pay for, and they know that too. But I don't think they have much of a budget left at this point, so they'd have to get clearance for additional purchases from the faculty.

I'm thinking maybe we could try to find a used Lowell Tota kit or something like that. Something that throws a ton of light but won't break the bank the way a large LED would. I dunno, open to suggestions.
 
Did you recommend the Zoom H4n or H4n Pro? I'm not sure is that old H4n has enough gain to work well with a NTG2; it would work better with an AT875R.
 
M. Gilden said:
Ha, I forgot about that option. Solid thinking. Only issue is diffusion is going to be a PITA- I'm picturing light stands with umbrellas placed in front.
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Why diffuse them at all?

What about a handful of used PAR cans, which look like stage lighting?
 
thekreative said:
I'd go used arri Tungsten. The school will have the power to run them and they look great and are dirt cheap but still have features they can use:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Arri-1000-...=item23b6b78350:g:lYAAAOSwepdcbu4s:rk:19:pf:0
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Also a solid option, and I love the price on the used ones! I actually might pick up some for myself at that price. But for this school (which is already over budget on equipment I think), knowing work lights are an option for the big scenes at 1/10th of the price is pretty compelling! For the smaller narrative scenes they are going to use the LEDs which have more options for diffusion, color, barndoors, etc.

rob norton said:
Why diffuse them at all?
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The hard light look is cool for the dance performances, but it will be mixed in with a narrative between musical parts. I'm guessing we can have them use the LEDs for all the narrative stuff as it will mostly be classrooms, a living room, and the rest I think outdoors (I recommended just a reflector for that). The LEDs have diffusion options to soften and make them look more natural. But if they ever need the big lights for part of the narrative, I'd like them to be able to soften it and make it look less jarring. I dunno, maybe I'm over thinking it.

What about a handful of used PAR cans, which look like stage lighting?[/QUOTE]

That's also a great idea! Work lights might be easier to come by, but those might give more options in setup and style.
 
M. Gilden said:
... knowing work lights are an option for the big scenes at 1/10th of the price is pretty compelling!
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Fire hazard. I know there are some who have long touted worklights as the great DIY lighting solution. The metal workshop reflectors with 100W Edison bulbs are one thing, but the halogen worklights are very risky for heat and fire. While even ARRI tungsten runs very hot, those fixtures are better-designed for heat sinking and generally encasing the globe.

I just sold a 5-head Lowel kit for a lot less than I’d hoped. 2250W of soft and hard light. The market for used tungsten is pitiful, which could work to your advantage on this project. You might look for some used Rifa lights, knowing the price at which I just sold mine...
 
Alex H. said:
Fire hazard. I know there are some who have long touted worklights as the great DIY lighting solution. The metal workshop reflectors with 100W Edison bulbs are one thing, but the halogen worklights are very risky for heat and fire. While even ARRI tungsten runs very hot, those fixtures are better-designed for heat sinking and generally encasing the globe.

I just sold a 5-head Lowel kit for a lot less than I’d hoped. 2250W of soft and hard light. The market for used tungsten is pitiful, which could work to your advantage on this project. You might look for some used Rifa lights, knowing the price at which I just sold mine...
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What about LED work lights?
 
rob norton said:
What about LED work lights?
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That's interesting... Do they get bright enough? I've used 1000watt work lamps on a music video in the past, but last time I saw an LED version it was like 1600 lumen.... that's 1/10th of the power. I have bulbs in my living room that bright. :/
 
M. Gilden said:
That's interesting... Do they get bright enough? I've used 1000watt work lamps on a music video in the past, but last time I saw an LED version it was like 1600 lumen.... that's 1/10th of the power. I have bulbs in my living room that bright. :/
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Haha I have no idea. I don't use any of this crap I've been suggesting.

I'm sure your cause could be enough of a charity case for a rental house to give you a discount on a 1-2 week hire.

What's wrong with tungsten lights? Students are around bunsen burners for a science class yet don't put their hands in the flames..
 
Cary Knoop said:
Tungsten for a High School project? Are the students helping out with things?

LED is much safer.
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Sitting in my house with the doors locked all day is much safer than jumping in my truck and driving down the highway at 70mph+, but then I’d never work, either. ; )

HS kids are exposed to much greater dangers on a daily basis, like going to HS, than tungsten lights. You can’t protect kids from everything forever. Nor should you. The overprotective attitude towards kids, and everyone, is a large part of what is wrong in society today.

Sorry for the OT rant. Was talking about something similar with my audio guy on our two hour drive back from a shoot last night about his 17 yr old son in HS and how this generation is pretty much a 180 from our generation(X). They don’t want to seem to leave home or venture out or drive or any of the things that we wanted to do. At that age, no one wanted to be around their parents or stay at home. You wanted to jump in the car and go somewhere. Have your freedom. Do something. These “kids” now just wanna stay in their protective “safe” bubbles and never venture out, I think, because of the overprotective attitude that society deemed was necessary and style of parenting pushed out to the masses, for whatever reason.

Circling back to Carry’s comment, in my day, if you burned your hand you learned a lesson: that’s hot, don’t touch it again. Today, someone burns their hand, they sue everyone around, because they’ve been taught that “nothing is their fault”.

Wow... Did that just come from talking about tungsten light?
 
Run&Gun said:
Wow... Did that just come from talking about tungsten light?
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I'd also like to add that using tungsten kids get to use a real light. Yes its hot but they are still used all the time. With barn doors, scrims and focusing they will be learning about how to use a proper light and how to shape light. If one of those student comes away with a desire to learn more and explore lighting, the lights have done their job.
 
I stay with my former comment.

If I were asked what video lights to get for students who like to make a video at a High School I would advise the school to use LED lights and stay away from tungsten lights.

Leave tungsten video lights to professionals who know how to handle them, not High School students.
 
Honestly I don't think you're going to find something cheap that will fill up an auditorium. Better to move the dance to a location with sufficient lighting, outdoors or some place with built in stage lights.
 
M. Gilden said:
Ha, I forgot about that option. Solid thinking. Only issue is diffusion is going to be a PITA- I'm picturing light stands with umbrellas placed in front.
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You can always clip some tough spun to the work lights, bubble it out so it's not close to the lamp. You can slo make some make shift barn doors using black wrap. I'd also recommend using steel binder clips rather than c47's as they won't char from the heat.
 
but they are finding that they want to light larger spaces and possibly a dance routine (I'm guessing that would happen in an auditorium of sorts), and the LEDs aren't bright enough, understandably.
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As somebody who pretty well exclusively is involved in professional music, acting singing and dance as either a production manager, or technical manager - you really cannot take video lighting and create theatre space dance or performance. We're dumping tungsten as fast as we can for quite different reasons to video. In theatre, music and events we want contrast, we want visible beams, we need lots of backlight and for dance sidelight - this creates mood and reveals form. For dance this is critical. PAR cans are saturating the market - everyone trying to dump them fast, but the cost of lamps is ridiculously high, and the power demand just making it impossible to plug in more than a handful without tripping the supplies. I have in one venue around 40 1KW parcans. They are hardly used anymore because LED spots can now put out the same quantity of light in red, green and blue and mix any colour you fancy, and 12 LED Par cans can do similar things to maybe 36 or more par cans using tungsten lamps. We still use Fresnels for washes because they blend, having soft edges. We use profile/ellipsoidal spots for hard edges, but we don't use video style flat panel soft lights. We have no real use for them.

If the school need to do some dance or similar - rent in a proper rig, assuming there is proper power available. For dance and drama, we love shadows, we hate bland washes. For camera they do a job, bit for an audience they are boring, flat and wishy-washy. Using TV techniques for dance does not make them stand out from the background, does not put light under limbs - where it needs to be, and the session looks like a rehearsal, workshop style - not a performance. In theatre and dance, we'd never use diffuser unless for some specific effect.

What is the finished thing supposed to look like? I've not lit a dance performance in white light ever. I've lit probably hundreds with colour, haze, beams and shadows.
 
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