Lighting an indie film.. how long?

Azmyth

Azmyth

Veteran
How long should it take to do setups?

Lets say you were shooting a night interior in a bedroom..

and you had access to several softboxes, several open face lights, and several other production lights.. at what point would it be running "too long" just to setup ONE setup of lights?

On average how long does it take to setup lights for a small interior scene?
 
It can be anywhere from ten minutes to two hours, depending on a myriad of factors. It's a pretty broad question, maybe if you can re-word it or give more information we can help more, but it's always going to be a variable depending on such factors as how experienced is the dp/crew, how much planning and pre-rigging has been done, how does it need to look, how specific is the director going to be about getting it "just right," etc.

Despite how it may seem, a small location can be even harder to light than a larger one.
 
Ditto... smaller is harder! Try to preplan lighting based on overall look and the size of the 'set'. Try to light with the least amount of fixtures and balance your lighting direction based on your camera and lenses. Some cameras can use less watts and the DSLRs seem to want more. That's my experience anyhow.

Jon Frost
 
Also, how good is your crew? Two professional, hard working, and talented hands can do what ten 'friends/neighbors/relatives' of the director can do in half the time.

Hire the right guys, and they will hopefully get your style of lighting, and anticipate your decisions. Before you can call for a bounce card, it's already standing by. Life can be that good.
 
I'm asking because it took my current "pro" DP 4 hrs to do one setup. that consisted of about 3 lights.............
 
Yeah, that's what I figured... *probably* it took longer than necessary, but we'd need more details and even then no one but the people on set can really say if it took too long or not. I'm assuming you're the director, in which all I can say is that the DP will take his cues from you for how long it takes. Tell him to go faster, and he will... and if the speed still doesn't work out for you, you'll need to replace him.

All I can really say is, look at your actual time constraints. If your DP can't work within them, get someone who can. Speak with him, guide him towards working faster. Occasionally a DP can lose sight of the bigger picture and spend a lot of time on getting a specific shot "just right," maybe because they're thinking more of their reel than the movie, maybe because they get too focused on the art... but you may need to have a discussion and let them know that quality may have to be sacrificed to meet time restraints.
Unless you build two sets that are exactly alike, get two lighting kits that are exactly alike, and get two DP's to light it and give them the exact same direction with the same crew... you'll never know if he took longer than necessary or not. All you can do is direct them to work quicker next time.
 
Well there's more to it than that, this has been an ongoing issue.

I didn't initially bring him on this project for that reason. Our styles clash. He's a film school grad, and likes to do things "by the book". I like to get creative, and see what happens. He's a tad OCD about lighting, and will literally blow hours of my schedule trying to move one light.

I had to pay an actor for a full day who only worked for about 4 hrs, because the rest of it she spent sleeping waiting on the lights/lens changes.. etc.

I got complaints from my entire crew about the long times, and his general "attitude" towards everyone else. They said it was clear to them that he was only there for his own personal gain and not for the welfare of the project.
 
get him a gaffer or fire him !!

i lit a bedroom scene on sunday, a girl lying in bed and her dad at the door talking to her

replaced the bedside lamp prac globe with my own and put it on a dimmer.
1 dedo down the passageway edging the dad standing at the door.
blacked the windows.
that took 15 min which included a cigarette, cup of coffee and a chat to the makeup girl.....
and the scene looked great.

in 4 hours we had 3 setups in the can.

cheers
 
There is a very old tradition when it comes to handling cinematographers. You fire them. Often times, the DP was fired not for any fault at all, but because the director needed to establish authority over the crew. So what a director would do when he had a crew respect problem: fire the DP. It's a tradition as old as the movies. Perhaps not fair, but very effective. Now, you actually have grounds for firing the DP! That's what I'd do. Of course, there may be other issues - he may be someone's friend, or whatever, so you must account for that. But the guy sounds eminently fireable - his competence puts your production in jeopardy and he's demoralizing your whole team, including actors. An actor is far, far, far, far, far more vital to a production than a DP - if it's ever a choice between the two, the DP gets shot down faster than you can bat an eye. An audience will easily overlook or forgive bad lighting, but will be far less forgiving of a bad actor. Or, if we confine this just to technical people, bad sound - it's more important to get the sound right, from an audience point of view, than the lighting. Now, it's hard to believe - and we all, myself included are a bit heads over heels in love with things photographic and so we tend to overvalue the "look", but the hard reality is: DP's are less important than the actors.

Fire his @$$ pronto. In front of everybody. Assert control over your production, the sooner the better, you don't want him to shoot too much footage, it's easier to fire the clown early on.
 
In the circles I work in, firing the DP for no reason is a stupid and despicable move. It would surely backfire. You thought you had crew issues before?! Fire the DP for no reason and watch all the AC's leave, along with the grip and electric. You better do it at the end of the day and be ready with an entire new crew ready the next.

I only work with directors who have my back, and I feel sorry for any DP who has to work with a creative collaborator who would throw him/her under the bus to gain authority and respect from the others. If I were a respectable producer or director, I'd fire the people (crew members) who had the respect/authority problem to begin with. I'd get rid of the bad apples first before cutting down the tree.

Now if the DP is doing a bad job, or deserves it that is another story. By all means, a DP should be fired for doing a bad job, for inappropriate behavior, or for creating safety issues... I am in full support of that. One must do his/her job with professionalism and utmost service.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who has to work in an environment described by Old Corpse. That's no way to work and I can't imagine a possible scenario where it would be effective. If not deserving, it would infuriate every crew member on set. As an AC or DIT, which I do, I wouldn't stand for it. I've never needed a paycheck that bad in my life to watch a DP I'm working for get fired for no reason other than to give the director authority, and not do anything about it. I would walk off set immediately, perhaps faster than the DP. I can't speak for the past or if this is how things used to be done as Old Corpse suggested, but I can speak as a member of today's industry and it surely has no place in 2012.

Again, I will finish this by saying fire the DP if he deserves it... and if you have any shred of professionalism, you won't do it in front of the whole crew. If he had been doing a bad job, or had been acting unprofessional, the crew will get it when he doesn't come back the next day. You don't need to make it a big show or try to intentionally humiliate him/her. If anything, the crew will respect you if you remove a DP with class, dignity and professionalism.

Firing a DP who does not deserve it? Doing it in front of the whole crew? Have some bloody humanity. Remember it's just a f@#king movie, after all.
 
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Heh, this was very, very common procedure (as reading books by or about directors back in the day will abundantly show - or talk to some old timer DP's :)). I've seen something similar with my own eyes, though it was more deserved - basically the DP brought along his crew and because the director was a first timer, the DP was giving him major attitude in front of everybody, which was pulling the team away from the director. But the director surprised him by firing him on the second day, and they quickly brought in another DP and crew. In that case it was kinda important for the director to do it in front of everyone, because otherwise he'd quickly lose control and people start second guessing him non-stop, which as a first timer would quickly bog him down.

Basically, you have to do what's best for the production. Sometimes that means, letting someone go quietly. Sometimes that means you cut them in public. There are various styles of directors, of course. Personally, I don't enjoy the screamers, but at the end of the day, guess what - it's the result that counts. James Cameron can be an absolute monster to people, but it won't matter if you hate his guts, he delivers. The moment he doesn't, he's gone. That's the cold truth about this business - being a friendly guy, a good rep and all that, only takes you so far, which is to say, usually not much further than the nearest bar... if you can't deliver, your friendly nature will not get you a project. And conversely, there are people at all levels in this business: actors, directors, producers, agents, executives, who are absolutely hated by almost everyone - for decades! - but who keep working, because they deliver. In the end, it's all down to the green - like in: $. Being nice or not, is almost irrelevant. I've seen it, over and over and over again, having worked for years on the business end, at a talent agency.

So, my advice is: do what you need to do for the production. And don't worry about "atmosphere". Some of the most miserable sets and productions have resulted in brilliant films. And some super friendly and "good time" productions ended up with worthless films. It's about the results. Always.

Fire him.
 
If they brought in a new crew, why would he have to do it in front of all the guys the DP has brought along? The producers who probably stuck around would know what happened and why. Treat people with respect and that's what you're going to get back, I make it a point to never work with the screamers because guess what? I have to do this alllll the time.

Honestly though, none of us have enough information as to whats going on with your DP and we will never be able to know unless we were there on the day. My best advice is to talk to him about why things are taking as long as they are...maybe there is trouble elsewhere that you might not be seeing, maybe there is something simple that you can do to help things move faster.

As far as the attitude thing goes, it's a little trickier...While it may seem a little weird, if you give him a sincere compliment or two I wouldn't be surprised if things wouldn't start to turn around a little bit. More criticism will only worsen his attitude and push him away further from ever having an interest in the project.
 
OldCorpse, in what universe is being a truly s---ty person justified by being a truly talented artist?

You don't need to be an a**hole in order to be talented, and being talented doesn't automatically make you an a**hole. So the only difference between being a nice guy and being an a**hole is that at the end of the day, the nice guy has friends.
 
Azmyth, if it's at all feasible, it sounds like replacing your DP might be the best option for getting things back on track quickly. As RyanT said, you can definitely try talking to him to see if there's something about this situation that you're not seeing. But generally speaking, if he's doing such a noticeably bad job that the entire crew is suffering for it, that's a level of incompetency that needs to be dealt with quickly and firmly.

-JMT
 
Yeah, this stems more than from this one event.

This goes back to the last film as well. I just held my breath a bit more on that one. I can't do that again, its costing me money.
 
I got to say Azymuth, from what you post, test wise. You seem perfectly capable to dp your own film, I think you would be better off. It seems this dp your working with has caused some grief. May be worth looking for another, or as I suggest, you can do it yourself. Of course it will be a bit more work on your end, because you will still need to work with the talent, but a good 1st ad can handle a lot of the load. And what he can't, a 2nd can.
 
Four hours is too long for a bedroom in an indie film. With good crew, I'd expect twenty minutes to 1/2 hour. One hour tops unless there are real obstacles involved like you had to clear the room for dolly track or something. I feel for you. My head would be exploding if I had actors, sound, and the rest of the crew sitting around on a location shot in a bedroom for four hours. YIKES! Makes me queasy just thinking about it.

I was acting in an indie feature last year and the setups lagged really badly. In this case it wasn't the DPs fault. We had no AD, the "director" was acting the lead in it and it just killed that set. There was a malaise that set in that was toxic. I think the advice in earlier posts about not letting that set in is extremely valuable. Everyone wants to be on a productive and exciting set and unreasonable delays can really stomp that spirit.
 
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Old Joke...Why doesn't your DP smoke? Because it takes him four hours to light it. (Insert rim shot) Sorry I couldn't resist.
 
Ha! good one!

Yeah the plan now is to DP it myself with the help of my 1st AD/AC and my 2nd AD. There's no reason we can't do it ourselves in 1/4 of the time.
 
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