Lighting Advice for 2-Piece Band Promo (+couple dancing)

James Fisher

James Fisher

Active member
Hello all,

I was wondering if I could garner some advice for a project coming up that requires some lighting. I'm a newbie when it comes to light, or at least light I have control over, so would really appreciate ideas/tips/pitfalls to avoid.

I've been hired to film a two-piece band in 2 weeks time. It's a keyboard player and a singer that want to promote themselves in the wedding industry.

They have hired a nice venue for the job, and all natural/outside light can be shut off (good start!) and there is a balcony all the way around so lights can be positioned above pointing down:
http://www.acapela.co.uk/

They have friends coming to the shoot to be the "Bride & Groom" enjoying their first dance. The general idea is that they want the band where the piano is situated at the back (lit up) and the couple dancing in the foreground (spotlighted) and dark spaces between and to the sides, so you wouldn't see the pews for example.

Filming wise, I'm imagining some nice sweeping Glidecam shots past/around the couple as they dance with the two-piece band in the background, and then cutting to nice closeups of couple, keyboard player, singer etc. Maybe some focus pull between couple and band on a long lens.

The two videos I have been given as reference are the following:

For band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0hAqzDlptA

For couple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA

So I'm imagining an amalgamation of these two videos' style (of course in a slightly smaller space than Ed Sheeran's video...) with strong contrast between subjects and dark space between.

Now the budget is very small and they are not expecting the world, but at the same time, and to the best of my ability, I want to blow the bl00dy doors off and push myself technically and learn.

I have a lot of experience filming weddings, and some experience filming band promos, and hoping the expertise on this forum can help me out in designing the lighting for this setup.

I currently don't own any lights but I see this as a golden opportunity to pick up a second hand starter set and hopefully off the back of this job win some more projects like this. I'm happy to hire instead/as well if necessary.

So... in my head I would put two strong spot lights in the balcony either side pointing at the centre of the floor for the couple to dance in. And probably a further two with wider beam on the band at 45 degree angle. And then I'd probably put one or two less powerful lights behind the band to give them some pop, but that's where my uneducated imagination ends, and these questions come to my head:
  • What lights would I need for each of these positions? (and why?)
  • What power would these lights need to be?
  • What accessories do I need to shape/soften each of the lights? (and why?)

Any help would be fantastic and much appreciated!

Thank you,

James
 
I would try to break this into two pieces - the band and the dancing couple. You'll need a couple of shots where both are in the frame but generally I'd try to intercut the footage and do a lot of closeups. Concentrate on the band, since it is their video.

Just an opinion, mind you.
 
Using those two videos for reference, I would take your modest budget and NOT buy any lights. You best bet honestly to end up with something quality would be to hire a small grip gaffer truck with the right stuff you will need and at least a gaffer that can help you.

As far as the band, the reference video shows large source very soft light and was shot on a high end camera, probably an Arri or RED and probably was ran through a nice grading session with a pro colorist. With a small budget, you are not going to be able to afford the grip gear, light modifiers and sources to probably achieve this type of lighting very convincingly. Sadly, the more lighting skills you have, the more chance you would have of achieving this look with low end grip and lighting gear but since you admittedly don't know how to light at a very accomplished level, you may have a hard time emulating this look.

If it were me, I would begin with either medium Chimera with at least a 1K tungsten through it or I would use 1K (even something like an old Redhead or Blonde would do, punched through at least a 4X4 or preferably a 6x6 or 8x8 silk or possibly grid cloth, depending on wardrobe, color of their instruments, etc.) as your key and then a smaller soft source as fill with perhaps a 650 fresnel hitting them as the back/side/rim light.

Your couple dancing presents more of a challenge because they are moving, being hit with flanking follow spots, while if you look, the rest of the room is not black or even totally dark at all. This is the tricky part. If they are okay with the couple dancing in a spotlight in a pool of black, easier, but if they want to see the couple like they are presented in the video, that is a huge setup. All of those practicals on the wall are on dimmers and there is a huge, soft source serving as fill on the two dancers. Also, follow spots like the ones in the video are not bare bulb or even straight fresnels, they are a specialized type of light and lens. Probably really old, heavy and made to last. But they would not be sitting on a typical grip/gaffer truck. Working with your gaffer, you could figure out where to source follow spots or if you could find a pair of Lekos or Source 4s to stand in. You would also want to rent a hazer so there is some atmosphere for those follow spot beams to cut through. There is a lot more to achieving this look than just throwing up a couple of lights.

Don't want to discourage you learning or buying gear but your best bet is to hire an experienced gaffer with a grip and lighting truck to pull this off.

BTW, I am a huge XTC fanatic so good to talk to a Swindon lad. Say hi to Andy for me if you ever see him.
 
Hi guys, thanks for your quick replies, really helpful.

@DLD -- sounds like a good approach to me.

@puredrifting --

Thanks for the wealth of info. Great idea with hiring, I didn't even know hiring a light truck and gaffer was a thing... That would undoubtedly give me the best quality setup for the money and probably teach me the most too. I've found a local company so will give them a call and see if they can help me out.

Wow, okay, I knew the band video looked good, and probably cost a few bob to have made, but my inexperience (and overconfidence) was thinking I could get close enough to that one with some hard work (and my plucky GH4) so my client would be happy.

So I googled my way through your description of how you would light it. Very interesting. You mentioned using a chimera and then a silk/grid, is that just a 2x effect of softening and expanding the light from the 1K or do they serve different purposes? Where would the fill likely be positioned for this video, and why do you need fill with such a large, soft light source already in front?

Absolutely, the Ed Sheeran video is a huge budget affair, definitely not looking to emulate it, but I think the client liked the essence of it. Our couple will be dancing very slowly so hopefully get away without the need for big follow spots. I'll talk to the gaffer and manage my client's expectations appropriately!

Someone from stateside has heard of Swindon!? I don't mean that derogatorily, I mean... it's Swindon... the home of the Magic Roundabout and the butt of most UK comedies from Red Dwarf to The Office (the reference in Red Dwarf kills me every time). Ha, I'd never heard of XTC! Thanks for teaching me something new about the town that's been my home for the last 10 years. I just listened to 'Dear God' -- awesome. I want to know where the video was filmed now because I'm sure I recognise that tree. Have you got a favourite song?
 
Hi James:

I think hiring an experienced gaffer will get you much further toward your goals for your client. Not saying you couldn't get that look yourself, just that if you don't know how to light at a decent level of competence already, it can be challenging to get anything polished looking. Learning to light is all about trial and error and you don't have that luxury with a paying client, you need to shoot and have the results look good, right off. The Chimera and the 4x4 or 6x6 would give you the same end result, lots of soft light to bathe your musicians in. The difference is the Chimera is much easier to control. Lighting is all about light control, making the light go where you want it to and avoiding it where you don't want it. Google an egg crate for the Chimera. This is a nylon grid that velcros to the front element of the Chimera and it controls spill. Egg crates are really important to how I like to light because I can put soft, creamy light onto my subject yet I can somewhat keep it from spilling all over the scene so I can individually light the background. Chiaroscuro is an Italian artistic term used to describe the dramatic effect of contrasting areas of light and dark in an artwork, particularly paintings. It comes from the combination of the Italian words for "light" and "dark." So in the scene with your musicians, an ideal style to shoot for would be areas of dark and light on your foreground, subject and background. You can accomplish the same look using a large open face light through a 4x4, 6x6 or 8x8 scrim but it will take a lot more gear, flags, more lights, cutters, dots and fingers (look 'em up on Google) to achieve this look. You still need some of that with the Chimera but because you are controlling all of that spill on the BG with the egg crate, it is easier to shape and model. If you set up the same scene and lit one with the Chimera with the grid and one with a 4x4 scrim, they could look similar but it would take more time, grip gear and work to get the same look with the open scrim. Since it will be a small crew and time will be of the essence, the Chimera would be my suggestion but your gaffer may have other ideas, just as valid, based upon his skills, gear, knowledge and taste.

All of these diffusion sources we are talking about are designed to soften and spread the light. A bare 1K on your scene would result in a very harsh and contrasty look, the exact opposite of what is in the sample you posted. There are MANY kinds of diffusion, I prefer silks and grid cloth, your gaffer may prefer frost, Opal, bleached Muslin, there are dozens of choices. See, that's why lighting is all trial and error. At some point, you will want to sit down with a model and a light kit and ten types of diffusion and shoot tests. Or you can look up YouTube clips where others have already done the tests for you and you can just peruse the results (you kids and your damn Interwebz, it's all so easy. Back when I was a kid, I would have to walk ten miles in the snow to a grip and lighting house, and then lash all the diffusion to my back, then trudge ten miles home and use lanterns as my key to test diffusion. You got it too easy! Ha, ha, old man rant off) As far as would you need fill? Hard to say until you are there. If you use large enough soft sources, with some shaping tools like flags, dots and fingers, one source can be your key and fill. It all depends on direction of light and if you are motivating that light from somewhere. When I shoot in a room and there are windows, if I am ever going to see the windows in the BG or edge of frame, that is motivation for the key source to come from the same direction as the window, it makes sense to the viewer. You don't have to motivate from the window side but it kind of makes sense to. If you have no motivated source, you can key from wherever you want, you can make it come from directly over the camera lens, which is typically very flat but a look often used for beauty, fashion and glamour type since it fills in wrinkles, lines and skin imperfections, or you can key from the side or even from the rear, it all depends on the look you want to achieve. This is why a lot of DPs love shooting music videos, you generally have a lot of artistic license and don't have to worry about "does this look real?" If you want to emulate the look in the music video you showed, look to the nose shadows for clues about where the key is coming from. Set it up, put some people in front of your camera and look in the monitor, that will tell you if you need a fill source. I am also a fan of eyelights. This is a small hard source, like an Arri 150 fresnel on a dimmer and dim it way down, for instance, that I position on the same axis as the camera. This can put a nice, round catchlight in your talent's eyes if they are looking toward camera as they might typically be in a music video. Don't forget your rim light or hair light. These will be sources that place behind the talent, typically fairly high above them. These sources will shine down on the hair and shoulders and allow you to separate dark hair from dark BGs, or dark wardrobe from a dark, murky BG. Lots of ways to do hair/rim lights, consult with your gaffer.

As far as lighting that BG, don't forget, areas of light and dark. I like to use something like two or three Arri 650 fresnels for the BG, they are about the perfect size and output to light up things nicely in the BG. You can put slashes of light, or a dappled pattern of light and dark by shining your BG lights through a patterned screen called a Cucloris, which you can make yourself or yor gaffer will have a few. The idea is to break up the BG into patterns and areas of dark and light, it's much more 3D looking and pleasing to the eye than just a dark murky, single tone BG or a plainly lit, bright BG. Also, when you begin to acquire equipment, you will want dimmers, also known as a "Squeezer" at least here in the States. These allow you dim down the intensity of your BG lights but a few caveats. If you dim tungsten sources, they become more orange as they are dimmed, which may appeal but can be challenging if you are trying to stay in the cooler spectrum with your lighting. Of course, there are also scrims which can dim the instensity without making tungsten more orange but it is difficult to achieve fine control of levels with just scrims. Make sure every light you buy has barndoors, they are essential in controlling lighting. Personally, I have three types of lights, tungsten, LED panels and fluorescents, each excel at certain jobs while are not that great for other jobs. Tungsten produces the most beautiful skin tones generally but are hot and really heat up the room if you light with them. LEDs are now high CRI (color accuracy) are super energy efficient and don't give off hardly any heat. Fluorescent lights are great for lighting up green screens or cycs, and can be used to light talent, especialy if you are going for a specific look, typically a more modern, high tech look to my eye. I used to own HMIs, these are daylight balanced super efficient instruments, but they are very expensive and have some limitations, such as each light needs a separate ballast that has to be hauled around and positioned, the bulbs when they burn out are really expensive and they can cause some high frequency buzz when shooting in certain situations. There are even some other newer types of lighting called plasma that I confess I have not tried yet. But the three types of lighting I own are the most popular.

I have been to Swindon. We did a big UK trip last year with friends. We stayed in London, then watched the sun rise for the first day of Summer Solstice at Stonehenge, we then moved to Salisbury to see the cathedral, then on to Bath, we stopped in Swindon, then a week in the Cotswalds. Love England, you are very lucky to live in a such a beautiful country. You live in Swindon and have barely heard of XTC?!?! So sad. They are Swindon's sons, XTC used to be quite a big thing in the 80s and 90s. Dear God is great and the album it came from is genius, it's called Skylarking and is a good start, listen to the whole thing, it's a song cycle that takes place over a single day. It was produced by Todd Rundgren and is a legendary album. They had quite a few hits over the decades, "Making Plans for Nigel", "Senses Working Overtime", "the Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead", "Mayor of Simpleton". Andy Partridge, the leader, still lives in Swindon and is still quite active in music, he just wrote a song for the new Monkees album that's quite good. XTC is one of those genius bands who never quite broke through to gain the acclaim they deserved for various reasons. Andy had a freak out on stage once early in their career and they never toured after that, it had to do with a perscription anxiety drug dependency he had had since childhood, they had poor management, etc. But they are genius songwriters and performers, well worth exploring their catalog. Think of a bit of punk, mixed with the Beatles, heavily influenced by the Beach Boys, their vocal harmonies are incredible, especially on albums like Skylarking. They are a very English band and many of their songs are about Swindon and Swindon life. Andy says the exact same thing you do about how Swindon has always been regarded as a national joke, a punch line. It's a shame, I found Swindon a bit average but it's a beautiful area of England and the history of the city is quite interesting. Anyway, enough XTC talk.

Good luck with your shoot, post some stills when it is finished if you can.
 
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Thank you for the awesome post, puredrifting! I've already read through it 3 times to soak up and digest the information, and will undoubtedly consult it again over the coming weeks in preparation for this shoot. I will be sure to post the results – eek! All good fun.

Hehe, I wish I were a pesky kid. I found this passion, and belief I could do something with it, a little later than most. I'd guess I'm half way between you and those pesky kids, I recognised your old man rant from increasing personal experience... But yes, the tinterweb is a marvel for learning. Nothing like getting stuck in and playing, but you can save a lot of time and money not having to experiment yourself.

One last question if I may. Regardless of this job, I would like to build up a set of lights for commercial work and to experiment for narrative work. Would something like this be a good start: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dedolight...067556?hash=item2ef5e73b64:g:eBcAAOSwawpXsefK

I read that Dedolights are great. Would these be similar to 3 Arri 650w fresnals but with dimmers? A little out of my price bracket right now but seems like a handy kit.

Fantastic you got over here and explored the South West! I do feel very lucky to live here, I have to remind myself how lucky I am sometimes. However, I love the States. My Dad's a citizen now and the two things you have that I love is dependable weather and an open, can-do-will-do, mindset. It's infectious and I often daydream about being that side of the pond. In the UK we are guilty of bathing in our history, our past glory. We lean on it, rely on it, and forget that the world is moving on and will not wait for us. We'll go the same way as Russia if we're not careful. We need to roll up our sleeves and pioneer every day.

I'm pleased to report Skylarking is on Spotify and I've just saved it. I'll have to try and hunt down Andy.
 
Dedolights are great, but kind of specialized. You should base your light acquisitions mostly on what you think you will mostly be shooting. For me, that's interviews, I shoot probably 70% of my work as interviews. So my general lighting needs will be different than an indie horror filmmaker, for instance. Dedos are really useful for tabletop or as accessory lights in a larger setup. I would base your gear acquisition on what your most commonly used type of setup will be. If you mostly will shoot people and not tabletop or specialized effects type shots, I would start with a large soft source (key), a smaller soft source (fill) and one or two smaller fresnels (one for hair/rim/one for BGs). Also, you need to ask yourself if you will mainly be lighting areas that have a lot of windows or in scenarios where you have to supplement daylight or if you will usually be on stages or darkened rooms where you control the color temp. Tungsten lights are great but if you often find yourself shooting in rooms with daylight, having only tungsten can be frustrating.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of pre-made up kits. They often have a bunch of crap in them that you will never use and are missing things you do need. I am also a big fan of buying used lighting gear. Lights, if they haven't been abused, hold up pretty well and will last decades with care. A versatile key source could be one of the newer generation LED fresnels. You can use a softbox on them for a soft key, or say you are shooting a room that has great window light, you can use the LED fresnel as a fill source or to throw patterns on the back wall. Very versatile instrument and there some nice looking ones for as little as $300.00. Of course, with you being in the UK, there are some lights we can get that are difficult for you to get and vice versa. For a fill source, you could buy one of the new bi color light mats, I just posted about one called Kamerar in the lighting thread here. It is on pre-order for $249.00 and is water, dirt, dust and mud proof and can be powered by V mount batteries or mains. That light with one of the DFuse softboxes, which are really inexpensive, could be a very versatile light as well. You could shoot in cars with it, use it as a key or fill with the softbox, use it rolled up inside a China Ball, tape it to a wall use it at the end of handhedl boompole, lots of options. IMHO, when you can only afford a few lights and are starting out, it is important to buy lights that can be used in two or three different ways. A Dedo or Arri Fresnel have nowhere near the versatility.
 
Glad to offer advice James. Remember, I am just one lowly cameraman with my little ideas about lighting. It's a big world out there, read, network, talk with other DPs and learn. With lighting, it is an art and you have to develop your style and your look using your tools. The basics are needed but once you have those down, that's when you begin to develop a tool box of looks. All DPs have them. I have worked with some world class DPs and watching them work teaches me so many useful things that I add to my own bag of tricks.

This is a podcast with David Klein, ASC. David and I have worked together for years on Homeland and I have interviewed him a couple of times too. He is the real deal, very talented, all you have to do is look at his work, Homeland is one of the best looking shows on television but he also shot True Blood, and most of Kevin Smith's movies. He is a no BS guy who knows what he wants and knows how to light very effectively. I especially loved his answer about the difference between lighting a feature and lighting for episodic like Homeland, so true. Listen to this podcast, I guarantee you will take away at least four or five things that will help you learn how to light more effectively. http://www.newsshooter.com/2016/10/...w-homeland-and-true-blood-dp-david-klein-asc/ I get to shoot an interview with John Toll, ASC tomorrow, he is a legendary DP and I look forward to meeting with him and hearing about how he lit Ang Lee's latest film. Learn from the masters, not schmucks like me ;-)
 
Hello,

Firstly I just wanted to thank you both for your advice leading up this shoot, it really helped out.

I ended up hiring a lighting van and Spark and it was the right decision giving the space and time and my experience.

Due to the busy start to year I completely forgot to come back on here with the final results. So here's there 2 minute promo if you're interested:
https://vimeo.com/196581728

Feedback most welcome. This is only my 3rd time having control/input into the lighting but really enjoyed it. Definitely a lot of lessons learned, and things I would do differently, but very pleased with end results we achieved in 4 hours of filming.

@puredrifting, I listened to that David Klein podcast - great suggestion, so many takeaways. Thanks again.
 
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