Libec LS 22DV tripod: Head and pan handle issue

I can definitely confirm that the Vision Blue is NOT a re-badged Manfrotto. That was true of the older "Protouch" range from Vinten, but not this model.

The Vision Blue is a re-sprayed and re-sprung version of the older Vinten Vision 6, a pro-level tripod. It is miles, miles, miles better than the Manfrottos in every respect (apart from price!).

In addition to the head, please do not underestimate the importance of good legs as well. Vinten's VB comes with proper Poziloc legs, which weigh a tonne but are very solid, and well-designed. The same goes for Sachtler, Miller and other "pro" tripods. Good legs are almost as important as a good tripod head, as a brilliant head on poor legs will suffer from rigidity problems, leading to twist and bounce-back at the end of pans amongst other problems.
 
david_p said:
one big negative about the Vinten is...they dont get as tight/torqued down when going to the higher numbers on the dials as it did when i first got it.
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Hey David,

Not sure what you mean here, so I can't answer directly. The only thing about my Vision Blue is that when I dial the drag up to max (I think the setting is "9") it gets harder to turn the dial. Is that what you mean?

It's not a huge issue (maybe I have strong thumbs!). All the other knobs/levers work perfectly.

The thing about the Vision Blue is that you're getting effectively the old Vision 6 (which was what, $2000+) in a $1100 package. Vinten have done this specifically to try to capture the lower-end pro market, with DSLRs and other smaller HD cameras, who (a) can't afford $5000 tripods and (b) don't have any sensible offerings for small payloads anyway.

They must be doing something right, apparently they are struggling to keep up with demand for them according to Peter Harman at Vinten, and various vendors who are having to wait longer than expected for deliveries.
 
Very interesting discussion here.

I have heard good things about Miller tripods too.

What about the new Libec tripod head:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/688728-REG/Libec_RH25_RH25_Head_w_Pan_Handle.html

I think for now I need to keep the tripod legs from my Libec. I understand the part about legs being important too but my budget says all I can afford is a good tripod head at this moment in time.

Vision Blue looks great but the new Libec is about 60 bucks cheaper. Anyone have any experience with it?

thanks,

Simon
 
Mike Beckett said:
Hey David,

Not sure what you mean here, so I can't answer directly. The only thing about my Vision Blue is that when I dial the drag up to max (I think the setting is "9") it gets harder to turn the dial. Is that what you mean?

It's not a huge issue (maybe I have strong thumbs!). All the other knobs/levers work perfectly.

The thing about the Vision Blue is that you're getting effectively the old Vision 6 (which was what, $2000+) in a $1100 package. Vinten have done this specifically to try to capture the lower-end pro market, with DSLRs and other smaller HD cameras, who (a) can't afford $5000 tripods and (b) don't have any sensible offerings for small payloads anyway.

They must be doing something right, apparently they are struggling to keep up with demand for them according to Peter Harman at Vinten, and various vendors who are having to wait longer than expected for deliveries.
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to clarify...no, its not an issue of the physical act of dialing in the higher number like 8 or 9 but rather when i go to the higher numbers the head is not as stiff & torqued at those numbers as it was when i bought it. does that make sense? i talked to a Vinten tech way back and he told me "not" to leave it stored in the high number settings. i didnt know that up front. now as best as i can describe my high settings of 8 or 9 really only has the torque setting feel of more like 5, 6 7 of a new head out of the box. if i put a light camera on it its not really much of a problem but if i put for instance a 5DmkII with a 300mm 2.8L or my EX1 with a few accessories i miss the ability (at times) to really make it stiff with lots of resistance.

the Vinten Blue looks like a very good buy from your above post and its good to know its based off of a much better head and not rebadged.

david
 
Ah, I see what you mean David. I guess only time will tell with mine, to see how it goes. I've only had the tripod for a couple of months.

I had heard that advice about dialling down the tension when the tripod is stored before somewhere. I guess I'd better start doing it, it's not just a fairy story then!
 
szimmer said:
What about the new Libec tripod head:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/688728-REG/Libec_RH25_RH25_Head_w_Pan_Handle.html
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Simon,

I've no personal experience of that. Chris Soucy's review on DVinfo is very positive about the head, I think. The legs are supposed to be good too, but he finds the spreader a bit of a weak point.

Check it out here: http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-libec-rs-250m-video-support-system.html

Sorry I can't give any personal experience of this.
 
And thanks for the link. I saw that review. It does sound good. But for 60 bucks more I could get the Vision Blue.

Sigh! Decisions! Decisions!

Simon
 
LS-38 is an older model, and gets a lot of positive reviews. It is very solid, and should have no problems supporting the AF100 or similar cameras.

The negative points from my experience with a similar Libec head (LS37, the predecessor) are-
- No adjustable drag (which may or may not be a problem for you)
- No adjustable counterbalance (so if your cam isn't in the 5-8kg range it won't balance well)

It's a well-made tripod with no frills, and is clearly a lot cheaper than the Vintens etc.
 
Mike Beckett said:
LS-38 is an older model, and gets a lot of positive reviews. It is very solid, and should have no problems supporting the AF100 or similar cameras.

The negative points from my experience with a similar Libec head (LS37, the predecessor) are-
- No adjustable drag (which may or may not be a problem for you)
- No adjustable counterbalance (so if your cam isn't in the 5-8kg range it won't balance well)

It's a well-made tripod with no frills, and is clearly a lot cheaper than the Vintens etc.
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Thanks! I guess I don't realize how good the adjustable counterbalance option is because I never had this. But is sounds very important.

Thanks again for the info Mike!

Simon
 
If your camera rig is within their range, it should be acceptable Simon. If it's not in that range, or if you sometimes have the cam rigged with extra goodies and it is normally a lot lighter, you will experience some "spring back" when you tilt.

Some people can live with it - I know some that have a Canon XHA1 or similar on this head and are delighted with it.

Again, if you can possibly try them before you buy, it would be good. Or make sure you can exchange it if you are unhappy!
 
Mike Beckett said:
If your camera rig is within their range, it should be acceptable Simon. If it's not in that range, or if you sometimes have the cam rigged with extra goodies and it is normally a lot lighter, you will experience some "spring back" when you tilt.

Some people can live with it - I know some that have a Canon XHA1 or similar on this head and are delighted with it.

Again, if you can possibly try them before you buy, it would be good. Or make sure you can exchange it if you are unhappy!
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Hi Mike,


The Libec LS-38 sounds good but the counterbalance option sounds awesome.

I keep researching and found a new one that sounds great but is also a bit older:

Manfrotto 519 head

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/341506-REG/Manfrotto_519_519_Pro_Video_Fluid.html

What do you think?

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Simon
 
hi simon,

i see you are still on your quest for a tripod head. looking at your struggle to try to imagine how good or bad a head will by reading words on a forum is a very difficult task. i was there years ago with my search for my first good tripod system. i came away from that with a Vision 3 head and Solo VJ legs. ive been basically very happy with that choice. in the back of my head though ive always had the notion that a Sachtler system might have been more ultimatte.

i just got the Sachtler FSB-8 delivered yesterday and being excited more than i could express put it up to give it a go. after many hours of back and forth testing i can say that i now have a much greater appreciation for Vinten than ever before. the Sachtler head hasnt stacked up to that head ive been dreaming of and anticipating for the last 3 years since i bought the Vision 3.

the #1 thing i dont like is the *feel* compared to my Vinten 3. now, im not saying that the FSB-8 doesnt feel quality but rather very very *different*. for me, it comes down to a matter of taste rather than saying one is better than the other. both are high quality but operation/feel is a very different animal. also, i really miss the variable drag settings for changing on the fly. i didnt realize that it would be clunky when changing drag settings on the sachtler. i never would have thought to ask that question but wish i would have known. the FSB-8 is quality built for sure but going back and forth between the Vision 3 i couldnt sell myself on the FSB-8.

i see your still trying to figure which one youll get. until i saw the "BLUE" on this thread i wasnt even aware it existed. im planning on sending the FSB-8 back and getting the Vision 3AS or if i could find another old Vision 3 i would get that because of the different springs for counter balance. all together i need 3 really good quality systems. with the money saved from returning the Sachtler ill have another $550 ($150 short of the BLUE). im going to look a serious look again at the Vinten Vision Blue as a head for my needed 3rd system.

ill keep you posted if i find more quality info & reviews of the BLUE.

simon, its really hard to make a choice without touching these heads. try to find a place to go a see in person.

good luck!

david

quite a favorable testimonial for the BLUE from a guy that uses all of the good stuff...
http://www.tomguilmette.com/wp/my-blog/archives/3523

interesting reading and looking at the tom guilmette review above i dont get the impression that the Blue is anything less than the Vision 3 sitting next to the Blue in that video. im am assuming (but dont really know) that the Vision 3AS is basically the same as the Vision 3 except it has variable CB control rather than springs...? the weight handling of both 3AS & the Blue are stated as the near identical. several reviewers have seemed to imply that there isnt anything less in terms of "feel & quality" between the Blue when compared to the Vision 3 or the 3AS. if thats the case i dont know why anyone would pay for the 3AS for an extra $300+. hopefully someone here will be able to explain what i might be missing. the Blue is looking more and more interesting the more i look into it.

EDIT: although the Vision 3AS has similar weight handling specs to the Blue the notable difference is the the Blue's much lower center of gravity making it better suited to cameras from the EX1 and much smaller where the Vision 3AS doesnt even adapt down to many medium cameras unless you pack on more weight. the Vision 3 with the springs did offer more flexibility than the newer 3AS. right now though the Blue seems to be an amzing head with all that creamy Vinten feel but for a very low price considering it quality.
 
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Hi David,

Latest update is that I contacted Libec and explained to them the issue. Even sent them a link to the video I made. They told me to send it to them and they will look at it and see if it needs repairs.

I am curious to see what they say. I am not expecting a miracle but at least I will find out if the tripod head was broken or not and then see what options Libec provides me with.

Blue Vision is sweet - no doubt about that - but one major problem with it is that it does not seem to be available presently. It is on backorder at two sites I checked. I need a good working tripod by the beginning of May because I have a trip planned to Costa Rica for our non-profit.

I hope Libec writes me soon so I can figure out what I should do.

Thanks again for your input David and wish you all the best.

Simon
 
David speaks a lot of sense there, Simon. At the end of the day, only you can decide what is right for you, this is all just our opinions.

I get the impression that the VB was developed with minimal R&D - they re-used an older, very high quality head, they already have great legs in the Vinten Poziloc range. This enables them to give us a tip-top tripod kit at a (relatively) very low price. R&D and new toolings would have made it a lot more expensive. No wonder these are selling out as soon as they come in.

Someone at Vinten clearly had a very good idea to re-use their assets, and did a very good job of it.

I also get the impression that the 3AS (sort of) replaces the older Vision 3, but without that bottom end 0kg (no spring) or 1kg (#1 spring) option. The Blue is the low COG version of that.

I was tossing-up between a Sachtler FSB-4 or similar and the Vision Blue - both are around the same price point. At that sort of price range, I personally feel the Sachtler legs aren't very good, and the Vinten legs are rock solid. Sachtelr excel in their proper ENG-style tripod legs, but the lower-end ones don't seem as good, at least to me.
 
simon, i could have sworn that the Vision Blue was in stock yesterday...lol! i guess i was dreaming. i can see your dilemma simon in not being able to wait because of your trip. its definitely a great deal which explains being back ordered.

ive seen a few more excellent video & written reviews on the Blue in the last few days. im going to send back the FSB-8 and will pass on the Vision 3AS because my cameras will be better fitted to the Blue. ill get two Blue heads, one with the tripod kit and the other without legs since i just got another set of Solo VJ's.

ill throw this out for you mike with some food for thought with a hunch on the FSB-4 your looking at with some observations as to Sacthler's feel vs Vinten's feel...

even with the 6 drag settings on the FSB-8 i found the 0 thru 2 almost useless even for a light camera like my HMC150. @3 its starts to give some nice control/resistance but if you want to lean into your starts and lean out of your stops then 4 seems to be the better feeling number. by contrast...on my Vision 3 (and ill expect all the other vinten's that have been discussed here to be basically the same) all the numbers of drag feel good beyond 2 or 3. granite i wouldnt usually use 0 or 1 on the vinten but 2-4, although is not real tight...still feels like the experience is "giving" you something. this is difficult to explain but ill try to put it into words.

the Vinten's offer up what i might call a "helper" in pushing into (from dead stop building up to speed) and then coming out of (de-accelerating down to a very gradual stop). on the vinten's for instance if your torqued down tight like a 7-9...you have a feeling like pushing into something absorbing your initital push with the creamiest of resistance...then as you want to go faster...even a quick pan, the head just "let's" you, even though its torqued down tight. it understands better than the Sachtler what that the user might want to be able to have "multiple expression elements" wrapped into a "single drag setting" mostly notable in any of the mid to upper drag settings and especially the higher drags settings.

now by point of contrast ill describe what i feel with the FSB-8 doing the same thing...
first off the FSB-8 feels very good, solid & smooth but...it doesnt have the "helper". it feels "linear & mono dynamic. if i want resistance to really help the easing "in' & easing "out" i feel like i need to go to at least 4 or 5 on the drags (tilt & pans). but...and this is a VERY BIG BUT...the FSB-8 doesnt change is personality in the way that the Vinten does. on the FSB-8 #5 drag is serious stiff but doesnt allow much of an option for quick accelerations like the vinten does. so, on the FSB-8 i feel like i need to compromise downward on the drag but then i give up some on the starting and stopping resistance. the Vinten gives you both elements no matter what drag you have. on the FSB-8 i feel you have to be more deliberate as a human where the Vinten is sort of complimenting your expressive pushes and pull backs acting as an assistant. it all feels easier. more "FUN & ENJOYABLE" on the Vinten. more expression friendly.

the Vinten has the sense of an "algorithim" thats more "organic and active" quietly working in the background and works with you more intuitively where the FSB-8 is more sterile at any given settings. in audio terms (ProTools plugs) Waves Renaissance compressor being the Sachtler and the organic Bomb Factory LA-2A compressor being the Vinten. both plugs are of nice quality but both interpret a signal completely different. i like both plugs by the way. for vocals though the LA-2A is unbeatable.

on my Vinten ill use anywhere from 3/4 thru and up to 9. with the Vinten i am able to "choose" which flavor i might like at the moment and they can all feel good (choices & choices...like a buffet) but on the FSB-8 i need to compromise between wanting that stiff resistance for starts and stops but still wanting a lesser resistance for everything between the starts and stops. ***THIS IS THE #1 REASON THAT THE VINTEN HAS WON OVER THE SACHTLER ***!

when i first studied the literature on the Vision 3 i read about exactly what ive attempted to describe above. interestingly though...when i got the Vision 3 years ago i couldnt really notice or feel what was described in the literature but i still liked the head a lot even though i thought maybe this feature was over hyped.

now, after getting the FSB-8 i can say that this feature i couldnt notice on my Vision 3 (3 years ago) is "now" actually the "BIGGEST" thing that i "DO" notice. HOLY s**t! what a revelation! prior to my cheaper Libec i hadnt ever touched a good tripod so basically i was ignorant to knowing much and there was no point of comparison like i have now between two very hi quality heads. this Vinten feature is very very "REAL". its a sneaky little guy that you dont miss until you take it away and use another brand of head.

so mike, those 3 drag setting on the FSB-4 would personally worry me. of course its very much a matter of taste between these two brands. both are exceptional quality. there are bundles of Sachtler users that im sure prefer the opposite of what i happen to like. maybe had i started with a Sachtler i might have not liked a Vinten afterwards? i wonder. honestly, i think there are more people in general that hold Sachtler up a little higher on the priemere list which is what i have been thinking the last three years. now having this opportunity to compare closely it leaves me no interest whatsoever in any Sachtler anymore. none.

its all about what works for each individual. great tools with different flavors. kind of like women.

in closing...i completely apologize for this most convoluted & messy glob of words above. this was hard to put into words ARGH!... but i hope someone out there might find some of it useful in understanding one persons POV and opinion on 2 very quality products. its really hard to feel the personality of a tripod by reading words on a page.

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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David,

It may be a convoluted and messy glob of words, but I do find myself agreeing with you again!

I know I personally made the right choice with Vinten. I had a Sachtler DV6-SB, similar to the modern FSB-8. It was a quality piece of engineering that I was very happy with. But I think you've hit the nail on the head - starts and stops are much easier with Vinten!

Your post actually (to me) illustrates the problem with describing these tripods to people. Brilliant tripods have a "feel" to them, the drag, the start/stop, the smoothness, that I find exceptionally hard to put into words. If only everyone could get to a showroom, with tripods lined up from Velbon "pro" models(!) to the highest Vinten and beyond, that's the only way you could understand the differences.

Stepless settings do make a lot more sense in the real world. Nigel Cooper (dvuser.co.uk) and other tripod nerds have written about this time and again. The odds of you hitting your perfect setting in a stepped world are so low. This is true in drag, I'm sure, but more so in counterbalance. Just imagine something like the Libec LS-38 with no settings at all!!

No... I've made the right choice, I'm sure. And I got lucky that my supplier got stock of a Vision Blue for me in a reasonable timeframe too. My advice for anyone that wants a VB is to place the order and get in the queue, rather than waiting and waiting for stock levels at B&H to improve.

One thing I would say is that the VB is quite a heavy system. I'm not sure I would want to hike around the world with it on my back, and I do exercise/weights regularly. It's fine in the car, but doing too many airplanes with it would probably get expensive. But there comes a point when you need a bit of weight for stability.


My last thought for this morning... if this tripod's good enough for Mr Tom Guilmette, it's probably good enough for mere dabbler hobbyists like me!
 
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i returned the FSB-8 and bought 2 Vision Blue heads (still have my Vision 3 & Solo VJ), one in kit form with the legs. got the kit in last week and all i can say is that the Blue heads are SWEET! they seem nearly identical to my Vision 3 head and the legs kit legs are very solid as well. very happy with this purchase. 2 Blue heads and one set of legs w/case for a few hundred over what the FSB-8 cost. i highly recommend this Blue system for anyone wondering.

david
 
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