Letus Relay vs Cinevate Relay

mcgeedigital said:
Of course I would and will welcome tests of both adapters.

But to call two manufacturers, and dvxuser SPONSORS "unprofessional" because they don't do what YOU want them to do shows a distinct lack of class.
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Hello again... My goal with what I´ve written before is not to call anyone "unprofessional", as the matter of fact I didn´t use that word. And let me explain why... When I said "If you want to be a pro, act like a pro" I simply meant, act like a pro in every way. If you are doing a DIY adapter, that´s what it is... and there´s a lot less of "musts", because that´s what you are selling. But if you are working on a pro piece of equipment, like these are supposed to be (and I don´t doubt of their quality), you MUST do every test.

And let me tell you... is definetly not what I want them to show me. Is what I expect them to show me, and I think that many people agrees in this point.

So buddy, relax... I didn´t mean to hurt anyones feelings, but as a customer? I have the right to ask for what I think is necessary.
 
Dennis Wood said:
Price should not be used as a deciding factor simply because our relay is priced well below where convention says it should be. This is more a factor of direct web based sales and our desire to put cool stuff in shooters hands at a fair price.
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Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
Sorry guys, I can't help it... but "on the planet at any price"... very bold statement... no offense Dennis, you know that am a value adder to Brevis... but hold your breath...
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Evangelos what exactly are you saying? That your relay is better for a lesser price? You have me confused.



Lenilenapi said:
If you go by features the Cinevate sounds fabulous let alone price. But until we see good examples from them all then who knows how they actually perform. Then there is the iussue of which adapter they mate with. Do you want a Brevis or a Letus?
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Lenilenapi said:
If I got that correct, it makes sense to me and we won't really know until somebody is able to test the Cinevate relay with a Letus, SG, G35 or whatever. I'm hopeful though.
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Well if you do recall... I'm doing a comprehensive adapter test in the coming months. The problem with testing these... is doing the testing the right way. Just like when Jeff sent me the results... I noticed right off the bat the potential flaw of having different lenses in use. Any sort of test like this has numerous variables... and if not approached correctly... could lead to pretty poor or unusable results. Relays are optically designed to be used with one adapter. So mixing and matching is always a risk the user takes.


Indyreel said:
Anyone?
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Don't try to rush a good thing Indyreel.


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Nonetheless, in respect to this thread and the hundreds of other "which adapter" threads out there... it comes down to personal preference. Think of how many less Letus Ultimate users there'd be if Philip Bloom didn't use one. Think of how many people pulled the trigger on an adapter or camera based on what the majority said here on DVXuser. Does that mean that the Letus Ultimate is the best? Does that mean that an HPX170 is the best camera for you at that price point? Not necessarily. The fact of the matter here is that the majority of people on these forums are biased. Whether it be because they're users, whether it be because they're sponsors or manufacturers, or whether it be because they read what others they idolize say and go from there.

In regards to price point, people thought that the micro35 (predecessor to the M2 from Redrock Micro) was a ridiculous offer when it first came out. No one thought that it was possible to have a $1000 adapter when the P&S Technik Pro35 was $10,000 or more. So don't go bashing what Dennis just said or anyone else that makes quality products. I saw the Jag35 at NAB and was really impressed with what he can offer for a $300 adapter. And I never stop being impressed by how far the adapter companies push themselves to improve... adding things like microprocessing, adjustable speeds, and all sorts of optical goodies.

In the end, if you truly want a definitive answer... go see for yourself. Go to shows like NAB and CineGear and look at them. Although they aren't side-by-side, it'll help you get a general idea. If you don't want to do that, then call each company up and ask for information.

Personally, I won't be satisfied with the information presented on these forums until someone presents a proper test. Just like I don't count what we found in the Zacuto "Great Camera Shootout" a definitive answer. The recent test from the PGA/ASC (they call it a camera assessment) has it's own flaws even.

Let's all try to be nice to each other though... and not name-call and degrade each other like some immature children.
 
Indyreel said:
Anyone?
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Letus has two relay models that are in production and have been shipping. I received my production verson B4 Pro yesterday.

Cinevate's B4 relay is not ready, not in production, not delivering. Therefore, it is too early to expect comparisons of the three products.

I have done one of the only possible tests, Letus B4 Pro(prototype) vs. P+S Pro35. With the B4 Pro at f2.8 and the Pro35 at .3 ND settings, taking lenses at f2.8, although one is a Nikon 85mm(Letus), the other is a Zeiss Super Speed(Pro35), the Letus B4 Pro/Ultimate/Nikon combination looked as good or better than the Pro35/Zeiss combination in sharpness, contrast, and edge to edge focus. The Letus/Nikon combination was better at handling backlit highlights by controlling the flaring and not looking as diffused as the Pro35/Zeiss.

I want to now compare B4 Pro and Compact production models to the Pro35, but using the same taking lens on all. For now, I am happy that, under the conditions described above, a $12,000 Letus/Nikon setup looks as good or better than a $30,000 + Pro35/Zeiss setup. This is exciting to me, as the rental rate of the Letus/Nikon package we offer is half the price of a Pro35/Zeiss Super Speed package. The Pro35 is the yardstick by which to measure any B4 relay/35mm adapter combination. However, that is just one test and there is more to come once the production versions are put through their paces.
 
Joseph Stunzi said:
Evangelos what exactly are you saying? That your relay is better for a lesser price? You have me confused.
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There are some statements too much hyped with no proofs... no footage and no charts... answers to questions like "with what aperture on relay was shoot this segment" was never answered by manufacturers or reviewers, clearly...

So "on the planet at any price" was way too much for my taste...

All my tests are on the net with clear markings...

So no I didn't said that something is better than something else... I just said not to make bold statements that include our solar system... or galaxy...

Lets either wait for independent tests, like yours, or if we have a statement to do, its better to do it along with footage that justifies it...

The production prototypes are in the black oxide stage and in two weeks I will post my results...

And you and Jeff will have a system for a month to play with...

I will ask also from Wayne to send me, a used SGblade to test and return back to him with the relay attached... hope that he will do it... even thought I don't have the slightest objection that it will not work perfectly with all adapters... GG.Relay Rev3 is a modular relay designed to work with all adapters...
 
Joseph Stunzi said:
Personally, I won't be satisfied with the information presented on these forums until someone presents a proper test. Just like I don't count what we found in the Zacuto "Great Camera Shootout" a definitive answer. The recent test from the PGA/ASC (they call it a camera assessment) has it's own flaws even.

Let's all try to be nice to each other though... and not name-call and degrade each other like some immature children.
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Hallelujah...
 
Dino said:
I want to now compare B4 Pro and Compact production models to the Pro35, but using the same taking lens on all. For now, I am happy that, under the conditions described above, a $12,000 Letus/Nikon setup looks as good or better than a $30,000 + Pro35/Zeiss setup. This is exciting to me, as the rental rate of the Letus/Nikon package we offer is half the price of a Pro35/Zeiss Super Speed package. The Pro35 is the yardstick by which to measure any B4 relay/35mm adapter combination. However, that is just one test and there is more to come once the production versions are put through their paces.
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Jeff, have you done any more testing or observations about the Letus Compact Relay? I've just bought a Letus Ultimate (arriving Tuesday) and really want to use it with a relay on my SDX900.

I'm torn between the Letus Compact and Dennis Wood's Cinevate Relay although that one keeps getting pushed back. The wider field of view of the Cinevate sounds like a winner, but the dedicated Ulimate/Compact combo may be a more logical solution. If you have any thoughts to help put me out of my misery I love to hear them!

Cheers,
Peter
 
Peter,

Please see my response to your PM. I just got another production version Compact and Pro week before last, but have been in London shooting, so only had a chance to do a quick test.

The Compact is much better wide open than the first one, which had an assembly issue. The 2nd production Pro looks to be like the prototype that I have, the first production unit was not as good edge to edge wide open as the prototype.

I believe the Pro to be optimal at f2.8 and the Compact at f4.0, just as I wouldn't use a Zeiss Super Speed or Nikon/Canon SLR 35mm lens beyond f2.8, given a choice.
 
Thanks again Jeff. I guess the best thing will be to wait until real production footage is posted on the web. It certainly looks like a three way race developing between the Compact, Cinevate and Evalgelos.

Cheers,
Peter
 
Well, here's my perspective on price and performance. I know what our relay has cost to develop, and I know what went into it. For example, not a single manufacturer has even indicated a model difference between CMOS capture and 3CCD capture, which inherently have different optics behind the relay, and must be dealt with differently. Folks who know me here know that I do not hype our products beyond what they are. As the company that introduced the concepts and features of XY adjust, micro-collimation and micro-processor control, folks who know us know that OK is never good enough. I'd offer up the guys raving over our EX1 phase 2 modifcations as a type this as another example of how we're always looking forward. We do this without copying other people's innovations and design which has pretty much become rampant in this industry.

We decided early on that a limited zoom, multi-format relay was the only way to go in terms of folks using SLR format lenses on adapters. This is because we've always been concerned about full-frame performance regardless of whether you are using cine lenses or SLR format lenses. So we're not using a rebranded optic made for a different purpose. Consider how incredibly expensive it must be for a company to design and manufacture its own zoom lens with the ability to satisfy the resolution requirements of Scarlett and all the existing HD 2/3" platforms. We're not a big company so rest assured that this has been a monstrous undertaking for us...to do it right. That's why it's taken so long....because we cannot settle for OK, even if the project is nearly a year past our initial projected release date.

For those of you using our lifetime warranty Durus FF, Proteus rails and Pegasus LTS systems...you know that what you paid for these parts and if you've been to a few shows etc, or used a lot of hardware, you also know what an incredible value they are. I admit to being personally befuddled daily by the ongoing consumer sentiment that if something is more expensive then it must be better. Consider Mercedes with it's JD Power ratings of 2 out 5 on several models, and Hyundai's Genesis which won many automotive organizations "Car of the Year" award. Companies don't get together (at least in this genre) and decide what pricing should be! Many charge what they feel the market will bear...something that we don't do as our mission is to affordably provide very high quality gear and world class service to film makers.

So the question is how can I be so confident without even seeing other products? Simple. Becasue I know what sacrifices and incredible investement Cinevate has made in this product. Like the Durus FF project which was utterly scrapped and re-invented, our relay is the same deal. Utterly unique design, uncompromising performance and most importantly for you, the shooters out there, incredible value :-)
 
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For anybody interested in Letus relays, they are now available in 1/3", 1/2" and 2/3" versions(two versions for the latter) and pricing has been reduced on the 1/2" and 2/3" versions.

B4 Compact is $2999
B4 Pro 4999
1/2" 3499
1/3" 2699

Lots of options, and they are actually delivering product for 2/3" and 1/2"(not sure about 1/3"). I've been renting 2/3" versions for over 6 months. Clients have been very happy with them.
 
Have you comparative images of both letus?

It is very difficult to find test images on Web... and i have to choose one.

I already have a letus and optics nikon with an hvx200.

Did anybody make a comparison for example between the letus on hvx200 and the letus on hpx500 with the professional version or compact ?

Did anybody test cine lenses compact prime from Zeiss ?

What do you recommend me?

Thank you very much
 
Duol,

I demoed the Compact and Pro to a DP who owns an HPX500. He ended up buying the Ultimate with B4 Pro and Zeiss Compact set. Personally, I think the Letus B4 Compact is just fine with the HPX500. Just a touch slower, softer and less contrast wide open than the Pro. Letus B4 Pro is a lot heavier and longer, plus expensive, for diminishing returns.

Biggest advantage of the 2/3" relay with a fast 2/3" camera is that the light sensitivity is much better than with and HVX and DOF adapter. The edge to edge sharpness with HVX using Letus adapters is pretty good, no added CA. Ditto the Letus 2/3" adapters, so it really comes down to light sensitivity advantage, and no need to worry about camera focus.
 
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Thanks Dino,

What i would like to know is if the Hpx500 + relay b4 compact + letus is sharper than the hvx200 + letus extreme.

Because hpx500 is sharper than hvx200 without the letus.

To have more sharpness it is necessary better to choose the professional version of the relay B4 or with the compact version we already have a little gain of sharpness ?
 
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The Compact will yield benefits in sharpness and sensitivity over the built-in HVX200 lens when used with an HPX500--however, it's best not to shoot wide open, or maximum sharpness and contrast will suffer. The same can be said about most any lens.
 
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