Let's lead ...

RGBaker

Active member
Much -- rather too much -- has been posted here on the topic of lens focal lengths. Allow me the vanity of a suggestion, or maybe a call-to-arms ... for it is us, brothers and sisters, that lead this charge and if there is to be change let it begin here:

As a producer, I make choices on what sort of equipment a production will be shot with. These choices are informed by my understanding of what sort of shots will be required, and what the budget will allow.

As a director, I make choices about how a shot will be taken -- what distance from the subject(s), what angle of view, what range of focus I'd like.

As a dop I balance the constraints the producer has inevitably placed on me, and the demands the director makes -- using the tools at my disposal I deliver as best I can the vision the director has presented.

In truth, most of us here find the roles collide: We are producer/director/dop in one. And so our knowledge as dop informs our vision as director with the nagging producer having packed the kit bag in the first place. So what is this call I make? Please, abandon the description of 'focal length' as the starting place for so many discussions.

Almost invariably, what we are looking for is 'angle of view' or perhaps 'field of view'. The first describes the pie-slice that starts from the camera & extends to infinity (or a wall ...) the second picks a point in that pie slice and measures the width -- from a camera position ten feet from the subject I need a shot eight feet wide. It is only when performing the role of dop that such details as what focal length lens matched to which imaging chip/film size that the details of the lens required comes into play.

So I link here a chart that spells out in simplest terms the angle of view and invite you good readers to at a minimum preface your description with a reference to that value. "I'm working in a tight space and need a healthy angle of view -- something like 85 degrees would get the job done." "I want the sense of calm control in my medium shot that comes from a ten foot distance from camera on a seated subject, something in the 15 to 18 degree range I think." From those universal descriptors we can establish what focal length lens will be appropriate to our imaging system ... and we can allow ourselves to speak like directors, leaving our inner dop to do the math.

Perhaps if we make this modest adjustment to our phraseology, we will encourage all those -- both noobs and curmudgeons alike -- to anchor a firmer grasp of the science of optics in their understanding of the tools we work with. To start a description of shot by naming a lens focal length is to join the narrative mid-way -- describe the shot, identify the imaging device, and the focal length will inevitably follow.

Peace out,
Geoff Baker

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/Angles-02z.jpg
 
That's a great chart, but I wish they had S35 on there.

I do too my friend -- but the beauty of it is a '20 degree angle of view' remains a constant and accurate descriptor. If you have the knowledge, or seek the answer to 'what lens delivers a 20 degree angle of view on S35' ... have at it. But we aren't playing 'Jeopardy' here -- the question is not likely "What is 66mm focal length, Alex" ...

I'm not expert in S35, but I think it falls into the same column as APS-C ...

Cheers,
GB
 
I agree. Where's the S35 on that chart?

My frame of reference is with Motion Picture Film, not Stills Photography film.

There is wanting something, and there is being stubborn ... the chart is a useful guide, no more. It doesn't cover any number of options, and the description of one as 'point & shoot' is near useless. But it does cover a range of options, and there are other charts out there specific to every format ever used -- not to mention calculators, iphone apps, director's lupes and good old extended arm guesstimation ...

S35 has various frame sizes depending on the aspect ratio one is shooting, but it is as near as is critical the same as one of the ASP-C options. So pretend that the author of the chart wrote 'S-35 typical' where they actually wrote 'APS-C 1.5' ...

Sheesh!
 
Sorry but that chart is completely useless to me - My frame of reference is 35mm motion picture, and all of the variations within (2perf, 3perf, 4perf, 'BigTV' or S35, etc ad nauseum).

In fact I think that chart just adds to the confusion because it starts the 'noobs' thinking that 35mm 'Full Frame' motion is the same as 35mm 'Full Frame' still size.
 
Really? That's what you get from my suggestion to use angle of view as a reference, rather than the focal length of a lens?

You use a wide range of specific film formats, each one of which delivers a different result from the same lens ... and you find fault with the chart.

So write a different chart. But maybe the point remains the same:

A director doesn't call for a lens, he calls for an angle of view, typically to solve a field of view. The lens is the solution, the angle is the descriptor. It is the wrong path (IMHO) to say 'I want the 20mm look', or to say that 'most shots use a 45mm lens' -- far more useful to say 'I want that ultrawide 100 degree look' or 'Give me that gravitas feeling that comes from a 20 degree angle of view' ...

Just saying ...
 
B&H sells stills cameras, not motion picture cameras. I'm not surprised their chart (which is still quite useful, by the way) is oriented strictly and solely to stills.

There are some things you can draw from it; use the 1.5 SLR for S35, and the 1.6 SLR for 35mm cinema. But the numbers for 4/3 are not accurate for the AF100, as they're too small, the AF100 has a wider sensor than what they list.
 
Really? That's what you get from my suggestion to use angle of view as a reference, rather than the focal length of a lens?

You use a wide range of specific film formats, each one of which delivers a different result from the same lens ... and you find fault with the chart.

So write a different chart. But maybe the point remains the same:

A director doesn't call for a lens, he calls for an angle of view, typically to solve a field of view. The lens is the solution, the angle is the descriptor. It is the wrong path (IMHO) to say 'I want the 20mm look', or to say that 'most shots use a 45mm lens' -- far more useful to say 'I want that ultrawide 100 degree look' or 'Give me that gravitas feeling that comes from a 20 degree angle of view' ...

Just saying ...


Never - ever in many years of producing big budget TV spots with some big name directors and Academy Award winning DP's has any of them ever asked for a 100º field of view… It's always "put the sticks here and throw on wide / or wide wide / or long wide, and see what it gets us" Then we re-evaluate what the frame looks like and change camera position or lens until it feels 'right'.

My biggest problem with presenting this chart is that the 4/3 sensor size is wrong for the AF100, it perpetuates the myth among the younger / less experienced that 35mm stills is considered 'Full Frame'.

Charts, numbers, º field of view… That's not how real creative filmmakers work on set. To the really great It's emotional, it's give and take, it's trial and error. The best that I've ever worked with makes magic with 3 prime lenses (18, 25, 85), experience and an incredible eye.
 
But the numbers for 4/3 are not accurate for the AF100, as they're too small, the AF100 has a wider sensor than what they list.

Well, the chart doesn't actually list a sensor size for 4/3, but it does use the widely adopted 2x crop factor (which of course assumes a sensor size of 18mm width and roughly 12mm high and therefore a diagonal of 21.63mm versus 35FF diagonal of 43.26mm for an actual crop factor of 2.000) -- in the interest of accuracy, the AF100 uses 18.9x10.9 ... a diagonal of 21.81mm and so a crop factor of 1.983. A difference of less than 1%, if I'm working from the correct sensor size ... please correct me if I'm wrong.

Good enough for government work!

Cheers,
GB
 
It's always "put the sticks here and throw on wide / or wide wide / or long wide, and see what it gets us" Then we re-evaluate what the frame looks like and change camera position or lens until it feels 'right'.

My biggest problem with presenting this chart is that the 4/3 sensor size is wrong for the AF100, it perpetuates the myth among the younger / less experienced that 35mm stills is considered 'Full Frame'.

Charts, numbers, º field of view… That's not how real creative filmmakers work on set. To the really great It's emotional, it's give and take, it's trial and error. The best that I've ever worked with makes magic with 3 prime lenses (18, 25, 85), experience and an incredible eye.

My friend, I think we are almost on the same page -- by extension I might suggest that it would be unusual for a Director to tell a DOP what lens he wanted. As you say, he indicates the angle he wants, and lets the chips fall where they may. In fact the first shoot I ever worked, now more than thirty years ago, I believe the camera crew would have stormed off the set if the director had the effrontery to even ask to look through the viewfinder -- in that pre-video assist time, the DOP set up according to his understanding of the director's needs, and maybe, if so inclined, allowed the director to 'check' his work ...

I'm not sure the chart is wrong for the AF100, see my math in another post. If I need to be corrected, have at it. As for the use of the Full Frame descriptor for 35 stills, I think we are stuck with it. Some times the tail wags the dog.

As for charts & numbers -- this forum is full of them. I hope the suggestion that angle is more relevant than focal length finds traction -- your suggestion that the creative process is rather different finds no quibble from me. Neither does it address the single recurring question/confusion that pops up in this forum.

Cheers,
GB
 
As for charts & numbers -- this forum is full of them.

I guess that is often my problem. Young 'Filmmakers' (and some old timers too) get so caught up in numbers, charts, what's fastest, widest, etc that their work often looks clinical / sterile because they forget to add emotion and creativity to the equation.
 
Never - ever in many years of producing big budget TV spots with some big name directors and Academy Award winning DP's has any of them ever asked for a 100º field of view… It's always "put the sticks here and throw on wide / or wide wide / or long wide, and see what it gets us" Then we re-evaluate what the frame looks like and change camera position or lens until it feels 'right'.
Agreed. Haranguing around crop factors and all that is just ... not even bothered with. And nobody on set says "hey, I think a 50mm on my "full frame" camera would give a good look, so can you back-figure what the appropriate focal length for a movie camera would be and put that up?" That just doesn't happen. Ever.

Director will call for a wide shot. DP will guess at what he wants and say "put on the 18". AC puts it on and the DP sees how it looks, and then will either move the sticks or, if the difference is going to be too much, go to the next lens in the set.
 
Why is everybody on this forum so desparete to get confused on a higher level.
BTW That's a very fine chart Mr Green. Chapau!
 
Despite what seems to me to be slightly strange reactions to your original post, let me assure you that as a "noob" videographer, your thoughts were enlightening.

Thank you.
 
Back
Top