LED-only lighting kit

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blommer

Member
I'm trying to put together a relatively simple lighting kit. A basic starting 3-point setup is probably ok. But I have one big requirement. I hate hot lights and I will not use them, end of discussion. I also don't think I'd like HMI due to the ballast. EDIT: If the ballast was integrated or small/attached it might be ok.

Some friends and I want to shoot some short films within the next few weeks. I've also always wanted to put together a lighting kit for interviews and random video/photography stuff. A few years ago I bought a 650w Altman fresnel thinking it would start my kit but I was so turned off by the heat that I kind of lost interest in filmmaking. Recently I've kind of got the itch again with all these LED panels coming out, and I was thinking...

Would this setup suffice: 2x ePhoto/Fancier 1000 LED 5600K panel for key/fill and 1x 500 LED 5600K for backlight/highlight. Or should I use some florescent? I *think* fresnels would be preferable since you can control the light more but they're so expensive. Would it make sense to bite the bullet and get 1x Arri L7-C Color LED Fresnel and a couple of the cheap LED panels for fill/backlight? Or is that just silly to mix the best with lower end?

EDIT: I've actually reconsidered a bit. I think I'm going to go with a couple HMI/CDM fresnels and then some flo banks. Should keep the heat away.
 
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blommer said:
I hate hot lights and I will not use them, end of discussion.
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I don't mean to be rude but at this point, with current technology, this kind of assertion will get you nowhere. Tungsten lights have been used on every single shoot I've been on that I can recall, and they're not going anywhere anytime soon. I don't like being uncomfortable due to heat either, but my passion for good lighting far outweighs this when I'm on set.
 
Thanks for your honesty and I know that tungsten is still the primary lighting on sets. But honestly I'd rather not do any filmmaking if I have to use hot lights. It's a binary decision for me.
 
I discarded all my hot lights a couple of years ago also to concentrate exclusively on more efficient daylight balanced sources. I used halogen lights exclusively through the first 30 years or so of my career, and certainly understand their performance, versatility and economy. But I hated the heat, the cooldown time, the cost of replacement bulbs and need to change them at inconvenient times, and the risk of blowing circuit breakers in the offices and classrooms where I often work. Also, projecting a "modern" and "green" image is important to some of my subjects and clients. (A major donor to the school where I work is Nick Holonyak, the guy who literally invented the LED, and he has an office right down the street from where I work.)

I use a mix of fluorescents and LEDs now. I don't want to suggest any specific models of LED lights to you because, frankly, I'm not entirely thrilled with any of the ones I have now. I can unequivocally endorse the Cool Lights fluos and the CFL version of the Lowel Rifa lights, however.

One lamp I would urge you to look at, even though it has the dreaded external ballast, is the Cool Lights CDM Fresnel series; they have both 70 and 150 watt versions. I have one of the 150s and use it on almost every shoot as either key, backlight or background light, depending on the setup. I plan to get another one just like it as soon as money allows. I don't love having the extra box and cable in the setup either, but the ballast unit is pretty small and doesn't get in the way that much. The quality of the light is what you would expect from a Fresnel, smooth and "creamy," with a decently wide focusing range. The CDM lamps are not hot-restrike capable, so you have to be a little careful about that, but on the quality-for-money ratio these lights score very high for me.

- Greg
 
blommer said:
Thanks for your honesty and I know that tungsten is still the primary lighting on sets. But honestly I'd rather not do any filmmaking if I have to use hot lights. It's a binary decision for me.
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You won't find any shortage of opinions on this subject both strongly for and against. A lot of times lately if someone even mentions "LED" they get jumped on and you kind of wonder why its necessary for some of these people to get rude or start lecturing. Whenever there is an emerging technology you always have some that don't accept it. You'll never get 100% to agree that something works for all of them. Many do though and that's how technologies evolve. So, there are many that don't feel they are limited to tungsten fresnels for their lighting.

Rent some products and try out different things and see for yourself what works for you. LEDs work fine for quite a few, they may work for you too. Fluorescent works as well for many, like Greg Smith above. Try both and see which one is best for your needs. For those times you may need a single brilliant point source spot you don't have to use a tungsten fresnel, there are other options again as Greg said.

There's no reason to give up film making--you do have choices.
 
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I think LED's, and every type of fixture for that matter, has it's place. I just couldn't imagine myself lighting a whole film with only LEDs and fluorescents. Add in some HMIs and then you have a good shot since then you'd at least have something that you can use as a point source, but HMIs can get pretty hot too. And they have very heavy and/or expensive ballasts.
 
Alright so I've been reading a lot up on this stuff this week...and I think I'd be ok with getting a CDM fresnel for hard light and some fluorescents for soft. It would be relatively cool I think!

What do you guys think of this CDM fresnel? DeSisti CD15F Ceramic Discharge Fresnel Light - 150 Watts - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._3410_210_150W_Ceramic_Discharge_Fresnel.html

What's a good basic kit for some fluorescent stuff? It would nice to have cases and stands and all that. Any kits recommended besides the Kino stuff?
 
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I'm sure that model is fine, but it's almost twice the price of our unit (by the time you buy their lamp and barndoors), the Cool Lights CDM 150 is $499 and includes all that:

http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html

And it doesn't have a daylight bulb choice like ours does, they only have a 3000K bulb. We have 3000K or 5400K choices. The CDM 150 fresnel will be back in stock within a week or so.

You can find portable fluorescent options like Greg was talking about here as well:

http://www.coollights.biz/portable-flo-models-c-32.html

People configure their own Cool Lights kits with the parts they want. That way you don't end up with a bunch of different accessories you may not want. You can contact us at info@coollights.biz and we'll help with any questions you have.
 
blommer said:
?..But honestly I'd rather not do any filmmaking if I have to use hot lights. It's a binary decision for me.
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If you're desire to do filmmaking is contingient on whether or not you have to use hot lighting...well I would say your priorities are a bit off. Filmmaking is all about telling a story and lighting is all about using the right tool for the right job. I personally own tungstens, florescents, LEDs, HMIs and so many other lighting tools which are all necessary depending on the story being told and the emotion I'm trying to convey through my lighting.
 
Just because of how against tungsten you are, I'd almost recommend that. Tungsten is by far my favorite light source, cheap, versatile, and incredibly color accurate. You could get 3 1k par cans for under 200 dollars and be able to light so much.

How much money do you have to spend anyways? The Celeb from kino looks like a pretty great LED unit, but its not until you get into those higher price units that you actually start to get some sort of color accuracy. LED is still an emerging technology and its exciting sure, but I perfer not to be an early adopter...let them figure it out and get the prices down, then I might consider purchasing a unit or two. That Arri unit just looks like either the most expensive 650 ever, or a 400 watt hmi with no punch. Good proof of concept, but not a lamp I would ever consider.

This is coming from using a pretty wide variety of tungsten and hmi from 150 watts - 20,0000, and a lot of the fluros and LEDs out there.
 
I don't disagree with you. Tungsten looks better in almost every way. And I've actually reconsidered since I started this thread. I watched a lot of YouTube/Vimeo videos of LED setups and interviews and haven't seen anything that looked great. A few looked ok, but nothing great. The color spectrum graphs of various lighting technologies also was interesting. I think I'm going to go with a couple CDM fresnels and then some flo banks. It should keep the heat away and provide good-enough color for me. Tungsten heat is a no go (for me).

What do you guys think of my new list below? I'm guessing most stuff I'll be filming will be in nothing bigger than a living room.

Here's my new plan:

* 1x 150w CDM fresnel
* 1x 70w CDM fresnel
* 2x 2x 4-bank flo
* 1x 2x 2-bank flo
* 1x 42-inch foldable reflector
 
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I would probably get a 4x4 kino over 2 2x4 kinos. Look at lights that use 55w biax lamps as well, those will give you much more output than T12s that kinos use.

I would also advise against getting one of those foldable reflectors. They're flimsy and there's no good way to mount them. Bead boards and whatever clamps you can get to hold them on a C stand are preferable. You can also skin these with whatever reflective media you can get your hands on from Rosco or Lee.
 
I'm reading a lot of gobbledy gook and some really sensible rebuttals.

I use ALL types of lights ( as long as they sync with the Hz of my camera) Hot lights are less than efficient but you can't beat them for sheer punch. I'm loving HID ( AKA HMI) especiallythe MODs I've been doing and yes, you can really score some cheap conversation kits if you are into DIY. LED's are my recent forté ( 10 years now) so you can imagine how thrilled I am to see the technology finally in real lights that can be nice matches to the high ISO sensors we've got now.
Each type of light has it's pros and cons. No time to make the lists now but here's a quick tip on how I use these separately and together.
On second thoughts, let me address your post.
Right now, hotlights are the best up-front value for the money. I practically eat Lowel Omni, V-lights and Tota's. Sell me all yours guys.
Of course, I advocate LED's because they are highly efficient in terms of Lumens per dollar. Sadly, the really good lights are still in skunkworks (around the corner). If you are working close up or planting lots of lights across your scene, LED's are great. The best are expensive and most are overpriced. Silly me, I use a lot of modified flashlights and bike lights as well as my DIY'd.
My recent finds have been HID (AKA HMI) . sure the fancy branded studio lights are great, controllable and pricey. But you can pick up a 50W conversion kit at 4,300K for $10 from China ( AKA ebay). Win Win!
What really suck are the flourescents. They were a great transitional but will soon be obsolete ( yes even the long 4' tubes)

My run n gun kit is four LED lights, but it's only good for interviews. For everything else, out come the hotlights and HID.
 
Victor Nhat Nguyen said:
where are you finding the three 1k for $200 Ryan?
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Here!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAR64-Black...age_Lighting_Single_Units&hash=item20c12e6549

23 dollars! Plus the globe...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1K-PAR-64-B...age_Lighting_Single_Units&hash=item2a2332a186

10 Dollars

Plus a TVMP

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=124760&is=REG&Q=&A=details

11 dollars

Thats 43 dollars in total for a 1k lamp that can go on a stand. 3 of them is actually only 129, so for less than 200 dollars you can actually get 4 1k pars. Best part? These are industry standard lights and they rent for 10-20 dollars a day.

I also advise getting a 4x4 piece of beadboard with either showcard or roscoe soft silver on the backside, that with a platypus and a c-stand and you'll be pretty set. It's nice to have something rigid as your bounce as those flexfills are always a pain to set.
 
RyanT said:
Here!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAR64-Black...age_Lighting_Single_Units&hash=item20c12e6549

23 dollars! Plus the globe...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1K-PAR-64-B...age_Lighting_Single_Units&hash=item2a2332a186

10 Dollars

Plus a TVMP

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=124760&is=REG&Q=&A=details

11 dollars

Thats 43 dollars in total for a 1k lamp that can go on a stand. 3 of them is actually only 129, so for less than 200 dollars you can actually get 4 1k pars. Best part? These are industry standard lights and they rent for 10-20 dollars a day.

I also advise getting a 4x4 piece of beadboard with either showcard or roscoe soft silver on the backside, that with a platypus and a c-stand and you'll be pretty set. It's nice to have something rigid as your bounce as those flexfills are always a pain to set.
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I was trying to go that route with Par38 cans and 85 WATT CFLS from http://www.alzodigital.com/online_store/light_bulbs_compact_fluorescent-daylight.htm, but the too many lumens are lost (need a reflector built for the CFLs, the Par38 cans are an 1-1/2" short for the bulbs (I wanted to gel/diff where the filter is), and the bulbs don't really fit anyways (they sag...are bending the internal support). The cans I got from BulbAmerica and 3/8" to 5/8" adapaters from B&H are just fine though.

I wouldn't go the used bulb route, but http://www.bulbamerica.com/light-bulbs/par-can-bulbs-2/par64-bulbs-2.html?base=118&watts=1103 there are a lot of 1k bulbs to choose from $25-$30. I would like to know what brands (if any) are the best for video since I am seeing 100 CRI on all of them, they are 3200k too. My main question now is what type of spread (they seem to recommend wide flood). I am also curious about how managebable/strong the hot spot is (though from my experience its not a real strong hot spot).

There are barn doors available for these cans. http://www.ylighting.com/bardoorfitpa1.html is an example.
 
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"If you are working close up or planting lots of lights across your scene, LED's are great. The best are expensive and most are overpriced. Silly me, I use a lot of modified flashlights and bike lights as well as my DIY'd. "

Care to share details of your LED flashlight mods? Those things are available super cheap.

Thanks,
Ken
 
steve4505 said:
I would like to know what brands (if any) are the best for video since I am seeing 100 CRI on all of them, they are 3200k too.
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Any name brand will do. They're tungsten so they're inherently 100 CRI, differences from one brand to another will be negligible.
steve4505 said:
My main question now is what type of spread (they seem to recommend wide flood).
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It's not very wide. With WFL and MFL lamps you get an oval shaped beam, both being about the same width but MFLs being about half as tall (when oriented horizontally). I'm not sure of the exact beam angles but a fresnel is definitely wider when fully flooded out. And fresnels also give you a narrower, and in some cases brighter spot than a NSP or VNSP PAR lamp, but the PARs are much more efficient and will put out more light overall.
steve4505 said:
I am also curious about how managebable/strong the hot spot is (though from my experience its not a real strong hot spot).
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PARs are best for when you really don't need a lot of control. They're great for bouncing into things, pushing through diffusion, and lighting up things where small details don't really matter. There's a very noticeable field of illumination outside of the beam. The wider the lamp is, the more even the beam will be.
steve4505 said:
There are barn doors available for these cans. http://www.ylighting.com/bardoorfitpa1.html is an example.
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Barn doors are pretty ineffective on PAR cans. They're not a point source like a fresnel, the entire reflector in the lamp is the source. If you want a well defined cut, you need to set a flag at least a couple feet away from the light.
 
I have Coolights CDM70, CDM150, LED600, two of each. I use the 150s on just about every shoot. I prefer the 150s with softbox over the LED for most applications.

The LED's have a slight green cast, even with the correction minus green filters. Be careful mixing Diva lights with LEDs, the Diva has a slight magenta cast vs LED green, you can white balance for one while making the other more extreme. I just screwed myself on a interview with LED backlight and Diva key keylight.

I use the LED lights when I'm mobile and supplmenting ambient light, require battery powered lights, or for lighting greenscreen backdrops.

My LEDs and CDM150 work every week and have been serviced by Coolights. They have a service location in the US, which is a huge benefit to me vs another brand which must return to China for repair.
 
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