LED hard lights?

[gutterball321]

So i have had cheap tungsten and cheap flourescent light kits, the fluorescent was good at lighting everything smoothly for vlogs or just lighting up a whole room. The tungsten was good at 3 point interviews lighting a person, catching their hair from the back and adding a shape to the background. I felt like Flourescent was good soft lights and tungsten were my good hard lights. I used them separately for different uses.

I am now getting LED lights for smaller/travel reasons and love my two aputure 672 LED light panels. They are a little harsh so I can add shadows to someones face, and i can diffuse them to make everything smooth like my fluorescent lights. I am hoping to find a third LED light that matches these in color that I can use barn doors to use as a hair light and one to aim at the backdrop to either make a pattern or throw through a cookie to look like window blinds. Can LED lights do this or are they not hard enough? Is there a small cheaper light that would work for this? it doesn't need to be powerful because it wont be a fill or key, just to spice up the background.

 

[Michael Carter]

How cheap do you need to be?

My feeling is you often can't beat a fresnel for the uses you mention, so...

A 300, 500, or 650 fresnel with full CTB - a 3" 300 is a handy little fixture. But the CTB kills a lot of light.

You can go 1/2 CTB for rim/hairlight and it still reads as "daylight", just a little warm and you lose less lumens. It's really a nice look unless you want a really cold style.

Cool Lights sells their 3" fresnel as a 75 watt CDM (cold strike, daylight) so about 250w tungsten equivalent but daylight. They sell their 6" as a 150 CDM which is around 500 watts. These are a little pricey. The 150 globe they sell is pretty nice and (I think ) $30-$40.

Amazon sells a 150 ballast for $49 that will strike the cool lights globe - the globe will fit in most 6" fresnels (you'll need to swap out the socket if it's not a G22). Here's my thread on that. If you have a donor fixture you can get a cold-strike 150 "HMI" for a hundred bucks or so. This - for the money - is a damn badass little light which I use a lot. My DIY thread covers making it so it doesn't look DIY (no duct tape or PVC pipe involved).

I've found a 150 CDM globe that's 5000k and $50 that will fit in the standard modern, asian or arri 3" fresnel (GX9.5 base) and I've ordered one to test with my 3" tungsten fresnels. If it works it will just take an adapter jumper to my ballast and the fixture can be tungsten or CDM with a globe change. I think a 3" daylight fresnel with 500w equivalent could be a handy small-kit interview light - trying to have a 1-roller-case quick interview setup and the little 3" fresnels are nice for that.

I've seen some hard-light LED fresnels that are crazy-pricey. Alzo sells a really bright sorta-open-face LED that has been well reviewed here - except there's fan noise to deal with. I think those are $300 and up. I've wondered about sticking a fresnel lens on the thing, but it would have to be offset for airflow I imagine. A skilled DIYer could do that. Something like a small round grid from the strobe world might be nice too, though metal grids on small lights can show up as "field of dots" in motion shots, something that doesn't happen in stills.

I'm sure others have their faves, I'm more focused on what's under a grand or so.

 

[gutterball321]

Thanks for that reply! So i was looking into companies like aputure to see if they had matching little hard LED lights to go with the light panel kits (i dont know why all LED kits are coming in just panels with no hard lights).

The arri little 300w light is the exact look I am going for, just in a daylight balanced version that would match my aputures. So would i be best just getting a light like this: http://www.amazon.com/Dslrk-Fresnel-Tungsten-Spotlight-Lighting/dp/B00WG9IY2O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1437154998&sr=8-4&keywords=Dslrk+300W+Studio+Fresnel&pebp=1437155002677&perid=0ZR920X9ZWQHB1PMK342

and then finding a match 56k bulb? 300w is a good brightness since my light panels with umbrellas seem to match my 300w tungsten lights. I am getting this kit to make it small and portable so the smaller the little light the better.

 

[DPStewart]

Gutterball, there are a ton of LED fresnels out there already. Same exact sort of housing as the ARRI style light you just posted.
Yeah, they are a LOT more expensive. There are other types too.

I'm sort of a junkie for cheap clones of every light style. Now that I know what you're looking for, give me a price range and I'll see what I can find for you.

 

[Michael Carter]

and then finding a match 56k bulb? 300w is a good brightness since my light panels with umbrellas seem to match my 300w tungsten lights. I am getting this kit to make it small and portable so the smaller the little light the better.

Nooooooo no no...

Daylight fixtures that use a single globe (like HMI, CDM, etc) use a ballast, usually external. If you just stick a mayching CDM bulb in a tungsten fixture, it will likely explode or burn out or, I dunno, rip a hole in the fabric of space and time.

You can convert a fresnel to an HMI or CDM daylight fixture; according to the guys at Cool Lights, a 150w ballasted globe puts out about the same heat as a similar wattage tungsten globe. So putting a 150 CDM in a fresnel designed for 300 watts means you're well within heat specs.

The way these types of bulbs are lit is that there's an initial pulse of very high voltage (after a certain wattage - I think about 500 watts - the fixture also requires an igniter circuit with very short wires - so usually the igniter is inside the fixture if the ballast has a long cable). So the bulb socket needs to be "pulse rated" as well. (I have 150 watt and 400 watt daylight fixture with no additional igniter - my 575 has an igniter mounted to the yoke).

Take a look at the link I posted to convert a fresnel to a daylight fixture - this is a 150, but the globe and socket are pretty big so it likely can't fit in a little 3" fixture. But an asian knockoff arri or one of the zillions of 650 to 1k theatrical and film fixtures on ebay would work - it's all about adapting the fixture for the different socket and getting the globe aligned with the reflector.

Still, my experience is that if you're slightly handy - not an electronics genius but can solder a switch and know how to ground a fixture (or have a friend to help) - you can make a great little, pro-looking fixture very cheaply.

In the next week or so I'll test my DIY ballast with a G9.5 daylight globe in a 3" fixture and post a thread if it works. Pretty psyched about that possibility.

I fully get it that some folks reading this will say "just buy a dang LED fresnel" - this is really for those who don't have $2500 to spend on one fixture. I do stills with strobe packs and constant light, video, film photography in 3 formats, darkroom printing, and audio recording and mixing (and my unemployed unmarried oldest is about to have a dang baby!!!), so there's never enough upgrade money to go around. But I don't like showing up on set with PVC and tape rigs either - good solution for the budget minded.

 

[Finn Yarbrough]

I use the litepanels sola 4.

 

[gutterball321]

Gutterball, there are a ton of LED fresnels out there already. Same exact sort of housing as the ARRI style light you just posted.
Yeah, they are a LOT more expensive. There are other types too.

I'm sort of a junkie for cheap clones of every light style. Now that I know what you're looking for, give me a price range and I'll see what I can find for you.

All depends, i may end up trying to get something super cheap now then more expensive later. Since im only spending $300 for the fill and $300 for the key i dont want to spend more than that for the back light unless I find something really nice. So im thinking $200-$300 or else ill just put a blue gel on one of my $100 tungsten lights

 

[Michael Carter]

Tungsten and blue is really a great budget solution unless you're looking to go battery powered on everything. No fans or ballasts, no hot restrike issues and just silly-inexpensive compared to the alternatives. And for the usual uses - hair and rim lights or washes across a wall - you don't need a giant fixture or a ton of power. In a couple years I imagine we'll have some dynamite LED fresnels that trickle down in affordability. A fresnel was a must-have light on any tungsten project and (other than Cool Lights) just got overlooked in the kino and LED eras. It's just too basic a look to do without.

 

[Moseph]

Thanks for that reply! So i was looking into companies like aputure to see if they had matching little hard LED lights to go with the light panel kits (i dont know why all LED kits are coming in just panels with no hard lights).

It's much simpler to have a cluster of small LED's than one large, high current LED. For the latter you need a huge heat sink, possibly a fan, components in the driving circuitry that can handle that kind of power, and I'd venture to guess that the emitter itself can be more expensive than dozens of your typical through-hole emitters since they're not in such mass production.

The arri little 300w light is the exact look I am going for, just in a daylight balanced version that would match my aputures. So would i be best just getting a light like this: http://www.amazon.com/Dslrk-Fresnel-Tungsten-Spotlight-Lighting/dp/B00WG9IY2O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1437154998&sr=8-4&keywords=Dslrk+300W+Studio+Fresnel&pebp=1437155002677&perid=0ZR920X9ZWQHB1PMK342

and then finding a match 56k bulb? 300w is a good brightness since my light panels with umbrellas seem to match my 300w tungsten lights. I am getting this kit to make it small and portable so the smaller the little light the better.

Don't do this, if you're going to get a fresnel go with a used name-brand product. And don't even bother trying to put a daylight balanced lamp inside, there's a lot more that goes into driving any sort of discharge lamp than sending 120v through it.

 

[Michael Carter]

Success with the 3" daylight fresnel. Posted the info on this thread. Very very happy, I will use the heck out of this.

Don't do this, if you're going to get a fresnel go with a used name-brand product. And don't even bother trying to put a daylight balanced lamp inside, there's a lot more that goes into driving any sort of discharge lamp than sending 120v through it.

As I posted above, you need a ballast for this sort of thing. But the "only buy a name-brand product", I don't agree. The Arri 300 is over $400. If you rent your gear out or have unlimited funds, sure. But you can get 2 or 3 3" fresnels if you shop around and check them for wiring (or just get the Cool Lights model for $225 - well, that is sort of a "name brand" around here, ain't it?)

Anyway, this is a badass little hard light to go with your LEDs or Kinos. If you're into a bit of drilling and soldering, have a look.

 

[David Kudell]

I got the Fiilex P360 to use as a hard LED light, and I really like it. It's like an Arri 350watt fresnel, but with variable color temperature and dimming. Flicker free. And it puts out no heat best of all.

You can get various attachments like a dome diffuser to turn it into a soft light, or a fresnel lens to narrow the beam angle. Very high TLCI score. The only downside is it does have a fan but it's extremely quiet, and I'm pretty picky. I wouldn't use more than 2-3 on set, but 1 or 2 and I don't think you'd ever pick up the fan on a mic.

 

[DPStewart]

Love the Fiilex stuff....I just can't afford any of it!

 

[Michael Carter]

Yeah, the P360 is $700 for a 300-watt equivalent. Maybe a hair light unless you're shooting with very low lights? Nice to have if you have that kind of budget.

Me, I'm gonna make another 300 fresnel conversion. That little light really rocks and it's just stupid-cheap!

 

[jixkk]

Recommend a cheap alternative: 50WA and 100WA. Some guys are testing this ones.

 

[morgan_moore]

Yeah, the P360 is $700 for a 300-watt equivalent.

Remember an 800 red filtered to daylight loses 2 stops so becomes '200'.. so a 300 equiv may not be that bad if daylight is your environment.

I dont know the fixture personally.

S

 

[Michael Carter]

Remember an 800 red filtered to daylight loses 2 stops so becomes '200'.. so a 300 equiv may not be that bad if daylight is your environment.

I dont know the fixture personally.

S

No, I've found that a tungsten 300 fresnel is often just about right - the 3" 300 is really a handy fixture for all kinds of stuff. My comment is more about the high dollars for not many lumens. I'd have trouble coughing up $700 for that particular unit, though I expect we'll see prices go down and quality go up for LED hard light solutions. I really think they should have pop-in fresnel lenses though.

I still don't see LED as the end-all to everything like many people do; unless I needed batteries for everything. I think they're really hitting a sweet spot for portable soft key lights… I just like what the fresnel lens does to photons and sides of faces. This has been a quandary for me, wanting to have a 1-case daylight interview kit (not including stands and fabrics). But getting a 150w HID globe in a small, ballasted 300 fresnel has turned out to be everything I'd hoped (other than it would take an external 120v battery pack to power it away from mains). I really prefer that wattage in a 6" fresnel, but the 3's are so packable… now I have a 6" and 3" that use the same ballast, and can be tungsten fixtures with a globe change and a cable adapter. They're under a hundred bucks if you have an existing fixture to convert, but you do need to be able to do very basic drilling and electrical wiring.