Lavalier Outdoor Application Question

R

rszebras

Well-known member
I will be recording a video for our company at a salvage yard where wrecked, burned, stolen vehicles are stored for insurance companies. There is definitely ambient noise of forklifts, tow trucks, etc. I will be recording a presentation on how our accident reconstruction company performs a brake failure analysis. There will be close-ups of each of the various brake system components with an explanation of the function of each. I could do a VO for some of it, but we wanted to have our engineer explain on-site what is happening each step of the way. I'll be the only one using the camera and audio gear.

So, I can't afford a Sennheiser wireless lav system. I've read some good things (and heard audio samples) of the Audio-Technica AT803B wired lavalier. Because it will be so close to the speaker, I was thinking it should work well. My plan was to attach the power module to the speaker's belt and use 20' of xlr cable to go to the camera. The engineer would be able to move to each of the various components and I wouldn't have to repeatedly move a mic stand with a shotgun mic on it. I could also get some moving shots. Also, if some of the audio needs to be re-recorded, like VO for close-ups of some of the parts, I could use the same mic inside and get good results.

What do you guys think? Have I thought this out well enough, or are there things I need to be concerned about?
 
looking quickly at BHphoto the mic you mention is $140?
If thats right, I'd suggest spending not much more and getting
a Countryman EMW.

Ive always found the best prices for countryman mics is
"northern sound and light"

If you're the only one on your crew, and cant afford a wireless..
then yes, the way you mention is the way to go.

Hardwired lav on the talent.
 
At B&H I can get a countryman B3 for about the same price as the EMW. And I'd go with the B3 if that were an option. It isn't, however, because the camera I'll be using doesn't have phantom power. I'm doing this project using my own gear so there'll be no expense to the company. This will be the first video of hopefully many more to come on each of the services our company offers. In the future I may be able to convince the company to rent or purchase a better camera, mics, etc. -- depending on how well this one is received by our clients. I think I can get more than acceptable results for a project that will be shown as a downsized flv file on our site using my consumer grade camera (Canon HV30) and an entry level prosumer lav like the AT803B. At least that's what I'm hoping.
 
rszebras said:
At B&H I can get a countryman B3 for about the same price as the EMW. And I'd go with the B3 if that were an option. It isn't, however, because the camera I'll be using doesn't have phantom power. I'm doing this project using my own gear so there'll be no expense to the company. This will be the first video of hopefully many more to come on each of the services our company offers. In the future I may be able to convince the company to rent or purchase a better camera, mics, etc. -- depending on how well this one is received by our clients. I think I can get more than acceptable results for a project that will be shown as a downsized flv file on our site using my consumer grade camera (Canon HV30) and an entry level prosumer lav like the AT803B. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Click to expand...

Three things:

1) Without phantom, none of these lavs will work. Not even the EMW. You can get lavs wired with inline battery supplies, however.

2) You're going to need to adapt the XLR connection to the 1/8" in on your HV30. An adapter cable, or an adapter box from Beachtek or Juicedlink, would be advisable. The box would allow you to use other mics in the future.

3) Have you considered the possibility of renting a wireless system with lav for this? You can rent a G2 system for very little. If there's a chance that the company will subsidize rental or (even better) purchase in the future because of this, you've avoided the higher expense on the front end and you've avoided having to deal with a hard-wired lav for a walk-and-talk.
 
The AT803B works on battery or phantom power. The countryman are phantom only. That's why I initially chose the AT803B. I have an xlr to 1/8" adaptor to convert the xlr cable that I'd run from the 803's power module to the camera. It's a transformer type adaptor so it properly terminates the balanced xlr line. I haven't had any problems running xlr into my HV30 using this setup so far -- even though I'm not using a Juicedlink of Beachtek. Eventually I'd like to get the Juicedlink though, since it has a preamp to boost the signal.

I did consider renting a G2. But I thought I'd spring for the wired lav so I could use it on my own future projects. It would be a good sit-down lav for interviews. And appears to work well inside and outside. My personal thought is that it's a good investment that I could use for many years. But if I went with a B3 ($200) and Juicedlink with phantom power ($300), now I'm at the cost of buying my own G2. I'd choose the G2 if I was willing to spring for $500. I don't want to invest that amount of money at this point though. I think $142 for the AT803B is reasonable. It's a large lav but I'm not concerned about concealing it. It has good specs. But most importantly it sounds good from the samples I've heard.
 
That power module appears to be for the "Isomax series microphones." I guess you could have the B3 wired for xlr and probably use it. But for me that's $280, versus $142 for the AT803B which is ready to go.
 
I have two B6 lavs and three E6 headsets. All of them came in packaging labeled "Countryman Isomax."

I was just putting that out there as a possibility.
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I never even noticed that power module. I think for my use, though, the AT803B seems to be the most cost-effective solution. I've seen (and heard samples) of lower-priced wired lavs, but this model appears to be at least prosumer grade. And some people assert they use them in professional applications.

By the way, there will not be a lot of walk-and-talk. Perhaps a few shots. I like the idea of using the lav so I don't have to move a mic boom stand with a shotgun mic to a new position every ten minutes and then have to frame the shot to make sure it can't be seen. I guess I'd be willing to do this if the sound quality would be far superior to the wired lav. I also like the investment of the wired lav so I can use it in a variety of settings in the future.
 
It's always worth asking the question. I agree with Rippie that if you can't afford a wireless right now, for a one-man crew, a wired lav is the right way to go. Audio is one of those things where, if you can get it better, get it better. But there are also strict budgets.

That said, I'll confess and tell you that I have used the Audio Technica MT830c before and used to keep a couple of them as cheap backups or for situations where I didn't want to risk the safety of a B6. I even use them with our parish's PA system for clergy who don't like to use the E6 headsets. These little mics sound surprisingly nice, and are well within your budget range.
 
rszebras said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I never even noticed that power module. I think for my use, though, the AT803B seems to be the most cost-effective solution. I've seen (and heard samples) of lower-priced wired lavs, but this model appears to be at least prosumer grade. And some people assert they use them in professional applications.

By the way, there will not be a lot of walk-and-talk. Perhaps a few shots. I like the idea of using the lav so I don't have to move a mic boom stand with a shotgun mic to a new position every ten minutes and then have to frame the shot to make sure it can't be seen. I guess I'd be willing to do this if the sound quality would be far superior to the wired lav. I also like the investment of the wired lav so I can use it in a variety of settings in the future.
Click to expand...
then why did you bother asking these questions if you seem pretty set in what you want to do.
 
The MT830c looks like a great small lav. The specs are similar to those of the AT803B. The big difference is that the latter comes with the power module for AA battery power. And I must have that since I don't have phantom power. When you don't have phantom power from the camera or a Juicedlink, the options in mics is drastically reduced.
 
rszebras said:
The MT830c looks like a great small lav. The specs are similar to those of the AT803B. The big difference is that the latter comes with the power module for AA battery power. And I must have that since I don't have phantom power. When you don't have phantom power from the camera or a Juicedlink, the options in mics is drastically reduced.
Click to expand...

AT makes a battery capsule that you can purchase separately.

But I'm with Rippie. You seem to have made up your mind...

EDIT: The AT803B has an Achilles' Heel. The capsule unscrews. A lot. On its own. I had a high school theater bring me in to do a sound workshop and they had cheap AT wireless systems with that lav, and the capsule kept coming unscrewed. This happens at the most inopportune times.
 
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Rippie said:
then why did you bother asking these questions if you seem pretty set in what you want to do.
Click to expand...

I've given a lot of thought (and read a ton of audio posts on dvxuser) as to how I might get acceptable audio for this project with my limited budget. However, since my audio experience is almost nil, I decided to run this by people with more experience to see if I'm missing anything, to see if my idea is workable.

I guess I've been debating within myself about using a shotgun (NTG-2) instead of the lav. But I'm concerned that if I have to do any VO later, using the NTG-2 inside can sometimes be problematic. Plus the lav will be six to eight inches away from the source versus 1-1/2 feet or more for a shotgun. Also the one man crew thing is leading me away from the NTG-2 or similar.
 
C2V said:
AT makes a battery capsule that you can purchase separately.

But I'm with Rippie. You seem to have made up your mind...

EDIT: The AT803B has an Achilles' Heel. The capsule unscrews. A lot. On its own. I had a high school theater bring me in to do a sound workshop and they had cheap AT wireless systems with that lav, and the capsule kept coming unscrewed. This happens at the most inopportune times.
Click to expand...

I didn't think about purchasing a battery capsule separately. I looked on B&H and they have the AT8531B, which comes with the AT803B. So another option is the MT830c wired for this power module -- total of about $180. That's the first I've heard about problems with the capsule. I searched a lot of sites on that lav. But it's something to consider.
 
rszebras said:
But I'm concerned that if I have to do any VO later, using the NTG-2 inside can sometimes be problematic. Plus the lav will be six to eight inches away from the source versus 1-1/2 feet or more for a shotgun. Also the one man crew thing is leading me away from the NTG-2 or similar.
Click to expand...

There are VO studios here that use the NTG-2. I know engineers that swear by it as a VO mic. If the room is treated properly for reflections, it's not a big deal that you're using a shotgun indoors. And there are inexpensive ways to create a treated "VO" booth that will function well for you.

I'm not a huge fan of using lavs for VO work.
 
rszebras said:
The MT830c looks like a great small lav. The specs are similar to those of the AT803B. The big difference is that the latter comes with the power module for AA battery power. And I must have that since I don't have phantom power. When you don't have phantom power from the camera or a Juicedlink, the options in mics is drastically reduced.
Click to expand...

I've used the MT830cW many times in small theatrical productions. It's a good mic, reasonably durable and rugged, and easy to hide. Its mic clip isn't worth anything -- easy to lose or break. Keep some bobby pins handy, they're a lot cheaper than A-T's replacement clips.
For what it's worth to you, my recommendation is to go with the MT830cW and phantom box. This comes as a MT830R kit if you can find it, and as you said it's comparable in price.
I agree that using a lav for VO isn't ideal, but it could lend a nice consistency to the final product. The voiceover mic I use is a Behringer B-1 studio condenser. It has a great sound, lots of presence. It comes out sounding quite professional. Best of all it's only $100. It needs phantom, so a good mixer might be a used Behringer UB502 or 802 for about $30-40, if you don't have one already.
I'm also a one-man camera crew on a severe budget, so sometimes we have to go with what we have! I'm interested to know how it all turns out.
 
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