Last Minute 2nd thought Red or EX1

Kenn Christenson

Kenn Christenson

Well-known member
Okay, I know a lot of you may think this is a no brainer, but I've had some serious second thoughts about purchasing a Red - since I've seen what the EX1 can do.

A little background - I operate, pretty much, a one-man-band production company - shooting and editing commercials, training and promotional videos. Beside that work, I'm planning to shoot an effects-heavy feature. The problems with the Red, that I'm running into are:
(1) its shallow DOF - a problem for miniature work.
(2) its bulk - as a one man band this is a pretty big downside, especially since I also haul around 2x70lb. HMI ballasts + dolly & track and additional tungsten fixtures.
(3) the funky workflow with Redcine, etc.
(4) uncertainty of sharp focus in 4K

The primary reasons for going the EX1 route would be:
(1) price - I could afford to buy the camera and some lighter equipment for the price of the Red.
(2) since I'm not counting on gathering a crew for the feature - it would be easier to operate.
(3) extended DOF for miniatures.
(4) easier to hand off footage to clients I shoot for (via download from laptop to drive.)
(5) could still use the non-intel macs, I already own, to edit footage.

I've been going round and round in my head about this decision - and now that it's crunch time (I just received notice my Red is almost ready to ship) I'd appreciate some other thoughts on the matter.
 
Hi Kenn:

Wow, you are seriously confused. I can't think of two more different cameras.

Yes, they both make beautiful images. RED is a 4k digital cinema camera that needs lots of crew, support, gear, support gear, etc. in order to conceive of a viable workflow. You will also be in for a minimum of what, about U.S. $30,000.00 on the low end with RED?

The EX-1 is a prosumer $6,000.00 camera that shoots long GOP 35Mbps video. It sounds ideal for your needs although I seriously question if the resolution will be sufficient for extreme visual effects. There is a lot of debate, but if it were me, I wouldn't shoot a visual effects heavy project with any prosumer camera, EX-1, Canon or HVX-200, I agree, the signal is not generally robust enough to give you the best possible look. That is the reason why none of the VFX shots in Cloverfield were done on the HVX, they were done on the Viper or the F23.

One man band shooting corporate and commercials with a RED is not a viable workflow, or at least not an ideal workflow. One man band with EX-1 is ideal, I just don't know if the signal will be robust enough for your effects heavy feature. I guess you need to get serious with yourself about your talents as a filmmaker, the possibility of you really producing, shooting and editing a film that will actually do anything or be shown anywhere where the adantages of 4k and RED would be worth it. If you are serious, have a killer script, financing and interested distributors, I would buy a RED. But if you just "have a dream", don't waste your money on a RED, buy the EX-1 and rent a RED or HPX3000 or whatever to shoot your film, if and when you actually do it. You need that extra money to pay your talent, build your sets, feed your crew, etc.

1. How many films have you written, produced, shot and edited?
2. How many films have you produced that have received distribution and have broken even or made a profit?
3. Do you have distribution?
4. Do you have a business plan for your company and the film?
5. Do you a registered script with the WGA?


If you can't answer yes with the number of films and yes to at least most of the above questions, your chances of creating a successful film that is commercially viable is miniscule, I would buy the EX-1 and make money with your corporate/commercials and if and when you ever make your film, rent, rent, rent!
I can't make a decision for you but hopefully this helps you with a reality check.

Best,

Dan
 
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Thanks for taking the time to give a great reply, Dan.

I had a chance to "play with" a Red, last night - and what really surprised me was the bulk of the rig and how unwieldy it was to do hand held work. The other surprise was how shallow the DOF was - even at f11 @ 17mm. I used to own an Eclair NPR - it was about as heavy as the Red, but at least it had some solid gripping points built into the camera.

You're right, of course, about the robustness of the Red's image for SPFX. I've already done some miniature and green screen tests with the HVX and can attest to the difficulty of getting a super clean composite. I did see, on DVXUser, someone posted some greenscreen, shot with the EX1, and thought it keyed MUCH better than what I was getting, at least from the HVX.

The plan with the Red was to rent it out, while I'm finishing up sets and miniatures - then use that money for crew, talent, etc. - when I'm ready to shoot - hopefully fall or winter of this year.
 
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Hi Kenn:

I am sure that you will dig the RED, it's really quite an extraordinary camera. I am attending the first Los Angeles RED User Group next week. Even though I cannot afford to buy a RED, I would like to be "up to speed" on it for when I rent it.

It's just that when you mention "one man band", that does not go well with RED although if you are mainly shooting miniatures, you can do that by yourself. I have shot a lot of footage of Ray Harryhausen and The Chiodo Brothers (Team America - Killer Clowns from Outer Space) at work and stop motion, miniatures and small practical effects photography can successfully be done alone, that's how these guys do it or sometimes there are two of them at work. But as far as going out and shooting live action alone? I think you would have a difficult time with the RED.

Ideally you should have the RED to shoot your film and the EX-1 to shoot your corporate/commercial stuff. Even though the EX-1 is only 35Mbps and 4:2:0, I have heard that you can pull a decent key with it, although I doubt that it would hold up well unless you use the uncompressed SDI out, which since you sound as if you will be studio-bound for your film, might be a viable way of working. I have yet to see any test of the EX-1's SDI uncompressed output into a computer or uncompressed disc recorder but I bet it looks pretty good. Might be a viable alternative to the RED.

Yes, the 35mm frame does have very shallow depth of field, that's another difficulty about shooting handheld without a wireless FF and an AC pulling the focus and iris. Just one of the reasons why the RED is a lousy "one man band" camera, It is no different than shooting one man band with a Panavision or Arri 535. You can do it but it wouldn't be easy.

Dan
 
Or buy the HVX500 and rent primes if needed. The 500 might close the gap for you between those very different cameras you are interested in: A viable ENG camera and, adding primes for example, a viable camera for cinematographic productions. Also pricewise it is half the way between the EX1 and the RED.
 
Looking at a budget stand point alone... EX1 - $7000, Red - 60,000 when the dust settles... For 7K you're getting a great camera and your bank roll can keep earning interest while the RED one's value drops over time...

I myself am a one man band as well and the EX1 has been great! Small, flexible, great lcd and a quick and easy work flow from start to finish. Further more, is there even a pipeline big enough to support 4K or is it still the "data to burn" mentality?

My vote, EX1, as posted before, buy the EX, rent the RED (buy in 3 years when it's 20K for everything)
 
I was looking at the HPX-500 (I use one at work. Did I mention I also have a "day job?") The trouble with the HPX was that once you got even a basic package together, it was closing in on what I was going to pay for Red $26K-27K (Including a new laptop and FCP.)

Good thought, DC - about getting a Red, after all the excitement wains. Yeah, right now, the pipeline for red kinda sucks. Would probably finish everything in 2K, anyway - give room for reframing.
 
Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.

I use and own many different cameras, the EX1 is startlingly good for it's price and sounds like the camera for you.
 
Kenn Christenson said:
The trouble with the HPX was that once you got even a basic package together, it was closing in on what I was going to pay for Red $26K-27K (Including a new laptop and FCP.)
Click to expand...

Naked camera EX1: 7K, HPX500 20K, RED about 30K. Of course, if you buy additional equipment, the camera price fades away proportionally. Same with the EX1.

philip bloom said:
Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.
Click to expand...

The EX1 is a bit sharper (900 against 800 lines of resolution?). But the HPX 500 is very fast and has at least the same dynamic range and you can get DOF out of it if you want. But yes, for 7K the EX1 seems incredibly good to me. (Haven´t tried it, yet.)
 
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Right, the EX1 kinda blows the HPX500 (sharpness-wise) out of the water. I actually made an HD-DVD of that jet ski footage to check it out on my HDTV. Even though it was compressed for the web @720P - it still looked very nice .
 
Ken, you may want to get hold of joelnet over at the reduser forum. Tell him Steve T. sent you. I've worked with him in the past. He just received his RED ONE, although I believe he's waiting on the adapter for his Nikon primes.

He's checked out my EX1, and really liked it. He also is considering the EX1 too.
We plan on doing some side by side testing to see if we can get some of it to cut.

The testing is not to compare, it's obvious the RED will be better for it's higher rez, and tight control of DOF. We are interested in if we can use them together and have the EX1 cut in some shots.
 
For a "one man band" I afraid purediffting is right. Even with the EX1 that I now owned, a viable work flow for 35Mbs is still problematic. Not many NLE support it yet so my guess is that the Red will have a harder time adapting to existing NLE.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Kenn Christenson said:
Even though it was compressed for the web @720P - it still looked very nice .
Click to expand...

At 720P there won´t be no difference between the HPX and the EX1 resolutionwise.

Stevet said:
We plan on doing some side by side testing to see if we can get some of it to cut.

The testing is not to compare, it's obvious the RED will be better for it's higher rez, and tight control of DOF. We are interested in if we can use them together and have the EX1 cut in some shots.
Click to expand...

To my eyes the EX1 and the RED look astonishing similar. (because of their CMOS-sensors?)
 
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WE have tow RED cameras and honestly while the image quality is beautiful, it's a currently kind of a pain to work with. The workflow is still buggy and very unfriendly and everything takes more time and planning with the RED. It would be impossible to operate as a one man band.
 
joe 1008 said:
The EX1 is a bit sharper (900 against 800 lines of resolution?). But the HPX 500 is very fast and has at least the same dynamic range and you can get DOF out of it if you want. But yes, for 7K the EX1 seems incredibly good to me. (Haven´t tried it, yet.)
Click to expand...


A bit?
EX1 reaches 1000 lines in 24p/25p/30p 1920x1080 and the HPX500 only about 500.

In fact the HPX500 has only 1/4 of the resolution of the EX1 (513000px vs. 2073600px)


regards Dennis
 
Last night we put the EX1 next to the RED ONE (Joel's).

This is the first time I've seen the RED. Amazing. Man it's so much larger than the EX1. The rig he had with the Camera/battery/Hard drive weighed in around 25LBS.

We really did not have much time to do any real scientific expertiments. We just wanted to get a feel for the RED and EX1 in the same environment.

The RED is real nice. It's built like a tank.
The RED only allows a 720 preview image during recording. Joel, bought the small LCD. I can't remember the model number and exact resolution, but it actully looked good.

We hooked it up to his broadcast 24" JVC monitor and a Dell 24" LCD.
One thing Joel wished the RED has was the Sony EX1 (JVC type) peak type focus assist. The RED has a couple focus assist tools. One was where you selected a window within the frame and monitored a peaking line that corresponded to the selection. The other was a magnified view.

Since it was getting late, we did not have a chance to view our shots from the RED. I can tell you there's something magical about the quality coming off the RED.

One thing of interest was that when we selected 2K image rez from the RED, the DOF used with his lens combo was very close to the EX1. At 3K and especially 4K, DOF was real tight. It looked great. Joel is renting the lens, since he's still waiting on the adapter.

The EX1 also looked great. As far as noise levels, it's probably equal to the RED at 2K. 4K RED images the noise is so small, it's in a different league.
The EX1 is at least two stops (maybe more) faster than the RED. In fact, one shot to get closer to his levels, I have to flip on ND1 on the EX1.

I believe he was at 320ASA, but we experimented with higher settings.
At 320, it sure looked clean.

I guess the real question is how much levels you can push in post before noise is an issue. I have a feeling, there is no issue here.
 
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In fact the HPX500 has only 1/4 of the resolution of the EX1 (513000px vs. 2073600px)
Click to expand...

Except that a) you're wrong about the pixel count, it's 620,000 instead of 513,000, and second, you're wrong again because it's 620,000 per chip in a spatial offset system, which gives the overall total system resolution about 1600 x 900. So to say that the HPX500 has 1/4 the resolution of the EX1 is misleading and laughable. Put the two cameras side by side and do you seriously think the EX1 is going to look 4x sharper? I think you'll be pretty surprised at how wrong that assumption is.
 
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