laptop workflow/speed questions

L

Lenilenapi

Carbonite Member
Here's a bunch more questions about laptop workflow that affect what kind of laptop I purchase.
I am limiting this to Apple powerbooks BTW. FCP refers to Final Cut Pro 5

1. I understand that 1.25 or 1.33GHZ processor (maybe even 1GHz) is sufficent to download P2 cards to a laptop.
- Does speed make a difference though? Will a new 1.67 Ghz proc transfer P2 cards significantly faster?

2. I understand that 5400RPM HD is fine to record HD data, but 7200RPM HD is neccessary to playback HD . I assume clients will want to be able to playback in the field
- Does processor speed affect ability to playback HD on the laptop - are there minimums?

3 - I'm a little confused about the files once they get on the laptop.
-If you download directly from P2 cards then you are not going directly into FCP right?
-What are the files then, Quicktime?
-Are there different requirements in process speed and HD RPM speed for Quicktime playback vs FCP?
-I've heard about losing "Metadata" in Quicktime. What is this & does it matter?
- Can FCP directly access these files or do they have to be imported into FCP & does that take much time?

4. If you capture thru Firewire into "Capture Now" in FCP are you making a different kind of file than the P2?

5. In either workflow (P2 or Firewire "Capture Now") are you limited to capturing files to the internal drive , or can you choose either internal or a Firewire external drive.

6.Powerbooks have 1-400 and 1-800 FW drive.
In a "Capture Now" scenario with files going to an external firewire drive, which device should get the 800 FW cable & which the 400 (camera or HD)?

7. Will any Superdrive record to double-sided DVD's or only recent ones?

That should do for now thanks.
Also just a general Thanks for this forum.
Can you imagine trying to figure this stuff out without you guys.
Thanks to Jared & Barry.
 
I'd like to know the answers to 1 - 5, just as well.

Especially 3, 4, and 5. Where's Barry at!?!?
 
Don't know Mac laptops at all, hopefully someone will chime in with better answers.

1. Shouldn't make any difference, processor speed should theoretically be basically irrelevant since it's a simple file copy.

2. Don't know. Look at Apple's FCP site for recommended minimums.

3. Files on the card are MXF files, which cannot be directly imported to FCP. So as I understand it you'd plug the card in and execute a "import Panasonic P2" command, which will copy the files from the card, rewrap them as Quicktime MOV files, and write them to your scratch disk.

Don't know about QT playback speed vs. FCP playback speed.

Metadata keeps track of all sorts of stuff about your shots -- time of day, place, shooter, serial # of camera that shot the shot, text memos you assign to the shot, custom clip names, name of shooter, name of production, scene #, take #, etc... that's all stuff you can assign in the P2 Viewer program (at least on the PC) and have the HVX attach all that info to your footage. In the QT import/rewrap process, that info is no longer attached.

4. Yes, you'd be making a native Apple QT file instead of a P2 MXF file.

5. That's an FCP question; presumably you can capture to external drives, right? Would seem silly otherwise.

6. Camera is FW400 only, so plug the camera into the FW400 port and the drive into the FW800.

7. Don't know.
 
1. A friend of mine is using his 1GHz Powerbook to capture/edit Varicam footage. Since the bandwidth for DVCProHD is 100Mb he doesnt have a problem. Although the processor is involved, the P2 transfer is more a limitation of the speed of the bus the P2 is used in. I'm not sure off the top of my head what that speed is on the Powerbooks. A trip to Apple's Developer site may be in order.

2. My Powerbook has a 5400rpm drive and i have captured and played back DVCProHD footage just fine in tests. That said, I always use a 7200rpm drive when doing things that matter.
Yes processor speed would matter but the newer (1GHz and above) PBs have been up to the task. For playback the CPU is dealing with the codec so it's a combination of that and the HDD. For example, my PB chokes on 720p footage compressed with H264. Same footage compressed with DVCProHD plays just fine. My 1.67 G4 just cant keep up with that combo of resolution and codec.

3. Barry would more about this than I. From what the Panasonic rep told me Barry is absolutely right.......as usual. :)

4. Anything captured thru FCP is going to be based on Quicktime. P2 cards capture MXF. They are different wrappings for the same present so to speak.

5. You can set your scratch/capture disk to any drive/array you have on your desktop.

6. Barry covered it.

7. Only the recent ones. I bought my PB Jan'05 with the 1.67GHz update and it is a single layer writer. The latest PB have the dual layer drives.

Personally, I would stay away from the new MacBook Pros. Why? It's Rev 1...let somebody else work the bugs out. Also there is no slot for a P2 card. There is only one Firewire 400 port and no 800 port. Grab a PowerPC version while they last.

Question 6 brought up a thought.....what if I only have an external Firewire 400 drive. Could someone comment on setting the Firewire system up like this for capture: HVX200 to the drive......drive to the computer.

Hope this helps. If I am mistaken on any of the points please let us know. I'm learning this as I go along.

Thanks,
Todd Eastman
 
toddeastman said:
Could someone comment on setting the Firewire system up like this for capture: HVX200 to the drive......drive to the computer.
Click to expand...

Toddeastman:
I've wondered about that too. Have you tried just capturing DVCPro HD straight into your PB's internal HD (5400 RPM). Then at the end of the day, transferred the files onto a larger/ faster external drive using the same FW400?
 
Thanks Guys,

I didn't know that people were already running Varicam's directly into the computer.
Is this the same workflow we are talking about with the HVX - Firewire to FCP 5 via "capture now"?

So it sounds like:

1. You don't need an especially fast powerbook 1.25 would be fine it even sounds like 1 GHz is OK for either P2 cards or direct capture.

2.You can get away even with 5400RPM drives though 7200 is safer

3. Yes you can capture to external disk.

4. Get a recent superdrive if you want to archive in the field on double sided disks.
BTW would processor speed make a difference on burn time? I imagine not, that's probably limited to the burner speed right?

5. If you are using P2 cards there is no need for FCP in the field as you are only capturing Quicktime anyway, and you can playback with Quicktime as well.

6. However FCP is needed if producer wants to do "capture now" and run long takes into the computer.

----------------------

Now this MFX wrapper bit has me wondering. Is there advantage to using a PC to preserve metatdata. Does any of this matter?
How much of the metadata is automatically created by the camera and how much do you need to add to the P2 wrapper in at the PC, and is that process a pain in the butt in the field or will producers want to do it.

Which of course brings up the question - is therer a good reason to go PC instead of Mac for the laptop. (certainly cheaper)

Yow this stretches the old brain cells!
 
OK I just found a previous thread where Barry talked about MFX wrapper & PC laptops.

Barry you said there that the conversion in an Apple from MFX to Quicktime takes some time.

Does that mean that the download of P2 cards will be faster in a PC?

If so how much faster?

This could affect workflow & how many P2 cards you need to work efficiently.

This loss of Metadata in an Apple seems silly, can't they come up with an Apple program to simply download the MFX files directly.

You have described a "P2 viewer program" . Does this exist on both a Mac & PC or just PC?

It sounds like a better idea than converting to quicktime . Why add conversions?
Why is this not on Mac
 
What if the intent is simply to use PowerBook to download P2 in the field and burn to a DVD / transfer to external HD. (No FCP needed). How could I optimize the download time and the burn time?

1)Does more RAM make a difference? 512MB versus 2Gigs?

2)Would it be better to have a FASTER hard drive (7200RPM 100G) or a BIGGER hard drive (5400 RPM 120G)?
 
Bono said:
What if the intent is simply to use PowerBook to download P2 in the field and burn to a DVD / transfer to external HD. (No FCP needed). How could I optimize the download time and the burn time?

1)Does more RAM make a difference? 512MB versus 2Gigs?

2)Would it be better to have a FASTER hard drive (7200RPM 100G) or a BIGGER hard drive (5400 RPM 120G)?
Click to expand...

A faster hard drive if you just want to copy the contents of the P2 card onto the hard drive. As Barry said it is a pure file copy and 7200RPM would increase the transfer speeds. If importing a P2 into FCP it will take longer as it has to process.

However you can copy the contents of your P2 card as is onto the hard drive and then later import that folder using "import P2" in FCP later and let the conversion take place when time4 is not an issue. FCP sees these folders as a virtual P2 card as long as youo keep all of the files and folder intact as they were on the P2 card itself.
 
7) If the dual layer thing is important to you, you can buy an upgrade for less than 100 dollars from other world computing, that would give you the latest 8x dual layer superdrive. That way you could go with a 1 or 1.25 ghz powerbook.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Does that mean that the download of P2 cards will be faster in a PC?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily, but download & convert to QT may take longer in the Apple. Not sure though, don't have a Powerbook. It takes about 4.5 minutes to offload a 4GB card in my PC laptop.

This loss of Metadata in an Apple seems silly, can't they come up with an Apple program to simply download the MFX files directly.
Click to expand...
I've asked 'em, and I believe it's on their wishlist of things to do. I hope so at least.

You have described a "P2 viewer program" . Does this exist on both a Mac & PC or just PC?
Click to expand...
I think it's PC-only.

It sounds like a better idea than converting to quicktime . Why add conversions?
Why is this not on Mac
Click to expand...
Because Apple built FCP on a foundation of Quicktime, as far as I can tell. Quicktime is a file format, and MXF is a file format. So it'd take some doing to get FCP to work with native MXF's. Hopefully they will do so.
 
Barry_Green said:
6. Camera is FW400 only, so plug the camera into the FW400 port and the drive into the FW800.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this question is irrelevant... the Powerbooks only have a single FW channel. So, the bus drops to the speed of the SLOWEST device... which in this case will be the camera. So, plug 'em in either way, it doesn't make a difference.

However, when you disconnect the camera, and hook up your fast FW RAID, use the 800 port!
 
What do you mean when you say the Powerbook has only one firewire channel?

Does that mean you cannot capture from the firewire (connected to HVX) and record to a scratch disk thru the other firewire port to an external disk at the same time?

This is a Big Deal, since that is what people are expecting the workflow to be.

By the way, we just tested firewire capture (on FCP 5)and P2 capture with an old powerbook 800MgHz with less than a Gig of Ram, and a 5400RPM disk
It worked great. We could record and playback video shot at any HD setting in FCP as long as they were clips.
When we put them in an editing timeline the 720 24P clips still played, but the more intensive data rate captures could not render.

Not bad for an old clunker. I believe capture rates were aprox 4.5 min for 4 Gig card.
We weren't prescide about the transfer rate and ony had a few minutes for the test, but it worked very well.
 
Each channel has a certain amount of bandwidth that's shared by all the devices attavhed to it. So, say, and 800 channel allows 800Mbps of data to flow every second; but two 800 hard drives hooked up to it at the same time must share that bandwidth... so theoretically, at full usage, there's no difference in speed between two 800 drives on one 800 channel and 2 400 or 800 each hooked up to a separate 400 channel.

Now, even a 400 channel can support a camera and a capture device at the same time (on a Mac; some PCs seem to have more trouble with this).

If you have multiple devices on a channel, the channel slows to the speed of the slowest device. So, if you have a FW400 device, any 800 devices connected to that channel operate at FW400 speed.

So, on the powerbook, plugging things into both ports will work; but it doesn't matter which, since they'll both operate at 400 Mbps if the camera is attached, since it's a 400 device.

If you want another channel, you can get a Cardbus FW card. But for most purposes the one channel will be fine.
 
Sorry to press this same question again, but does adding extra RAM affect P2 download speed? Should I pay the extra $500 for 2G of RAM or will it function the same at 512MB (talking about P2 download speed only)...?
 
For downloading, RAM shouldn't make a difference. But, 512 is pretty minimal for other things... you'll eventually want to increase it. $100 should get you at least to 1GB... a good compromise...?
 
Lots of Hearsay

Lots of Hearsay

Barry_Green said:
Not necessarily, but download & convert to QT may take longer in the Apple. Not sure though, don't have a Powerbook. It takes about 4.5 minutes to offload a 4GB card in my PC laptop.
Click to expand...
We have reports here on this board that the download of a 4 GB P2 Card to a Powerbook takes a little over 1 minute. So this is shorter then what you state. Conversion from MXF to QT is an on-the-fly operation.

Barry_Green said:
I've asked 'em, and I believe it's on their wishlist of things to do. I hope so at least.
Click to expand...
Wait for NAB in April.


Barry_Green said:
I think it's PC-only.
Click to expand...
Not necessary on a Mac.


Barry_Green said:
... Apple built FCP on a foundation of Quicktime, as far as I can tell. Quicktime is a file format, and MXF is a file format. So it'd take some doing to get FCP to work with native MXF's.
Click to expand...
Not really. QT is a media architecture. For media files, QT is a wrapper for the media data, as is MXF. They differ insofar as MXF does carry more/different metadata along with the media data. FCP 5.0.4 can import P2 data (media data) while meta data currently remains unused to a certain extent. FCP6 (NAB) will solve this situation, if not an earlier minor update.
Best Pe.
 
Bono said:
Sorry to press this same question again, but does adding extra RAM affect P2 download speed? Should I pay the extra $500 for 2G of RAM or will it function the same at 512MB (talking about P2 download speed only)...?
Click to expand...
More RAM does not make a difference for downloading data from a P2 card. Download speed is only a question of HD specs and bus speed. A 5400 rpm HD will suffice largely though, as a 7200 rpm HD is only marginally faster (but costs a lot of more dough).
2 GB of RAM makes a Powerbook's overall performance much faster. Everything happens much "zippier" if I may say so. In FCP you get a lot more operation in realtime. So all in all, 2 GB of RAM is a good investment, yes, speaking from my own experience.
 
PKraft said:
We have reports here on this board that the download of a 4 GB P2 Card to a Powerbook takes a little over 1 minute.
Click to expand...
Not possible. One minute PER GIG perhaps, but there's no possible way to write 4 gigabytes to a G4 hard disk in one minute. You'd need at least a 3-drive SATA RAID to support the bandwidth to do that.

One minute per gig is the going rate, so I'm sure that's what you meant.

It *is* theoretically possible to offload a 4GB card in under a minute, that's just below the card's maximum speed rating, but you'd need like I said, a SATA RAID that can sustain over 80 megabytes per second sustained write speed in order to do it.
 
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