Kitchen at night

[Jerryv]

Hello Everyone,

I want to make a short film about a old man who is dish washing, and something mysterieus/strange is happening. So i want to film at night.
It would be MUCH easyer if i just shot it during the day, but i have the feeling that night/evening is... more mysterieus than plain daylight.

I have tried a lighting setup, (1x1000 watt light shining from livingroom into kitchen, diffused) And i wanted to try moonlight falling truw the window (nice blue moonlight!) But... I live in the Netherlands, and... it was raining.. again...!
arrrrrrrggg! How can i ever shine lights to the windows if the weather keeps changing every day :huh:

Well, so, without the moonlight, here are some screenshots (just testing!)

I do see grain, but the gain is set to 0 DB (L stand on the DVX100B) So.. :crybaby:

What do you think?

 

[PaPa]

not bad for a evening look.

The reasons "hollywood" produces some of the best nighttime footage around is the excessive use of lights.

It might not work for you, but some of the nicest looks require alot more light than you think.

a strong backlight that really defines the edges, adds those hilights where required instead of having a matt and bland looking shot that appears dark. Make the darks darker by having the lights even lighter. Just go for the edge enhancement look, by really beaming light so that it makes lines glow.

However, you are inside, so what might be nice is just a stronger keylight or backlight as to dimm the rest of your surroundings while keeping the actor nicely in focus and exposed.

lighting for night is very very tricky. But here is an example that i posted in the HVX forum ( shot with a dvx100b mind you... )

 

[Alex DePew]

I agree with Jonathan. It definitely evokes night. But it looks very flat. I have two autopoles that have helped me in this type of situation. It allows you to put the lights up and out of the way. I would put a couple overhead lights up and wrap them in black wrap to have less spill and maintain the shadows. One for back light one to supplement the key.

If you are able to get the lights overhead, I would also really cut the light from the living room. It would give more of a night feel if the light in the living room doesn't look like it's on but rather like the subtle light from the moon and stars coming in from a window.

Here's a link to the autopoles. In my opinion they are a great value and are tremendously useful.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home;jsessionid=F8Pj0tJGsh!-1998596878!1161613091204?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=RootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&shs=autopole&image.x=0&image.y=0

 

[PaPa]

here is an original

and here is A version of a CC'ed up image

that being said, you can lower the saturation even more for an even more blue ish night time look that is saught after. just play with your color grading in your NLE and see what suits you best, but use lights!

as mentioned, its very important not to have too much spill, cause you want your lights concentrated on whatever the camera is seeing, without causing too much of a fill.

Shadows are your friends for night time looks, use them, dont be afraid.

 

[PaPa]

overall, your goal should be, lower your pictures contrasts, crush those blacks big time, but allow your picture ot have those realoly bright brights, and the dark darks, whereas a daylight shot will be a little more consistant across the board.

 

[Jerryv]

Thanks!

Do you meen putting the backlight above, to the ceiling?
But instead of shining down, i put the light towards the window for creating a backlight, is that correct? This light is the fill, its the most powerfull light and it suggest that the kitchen lights are turn on?

Do you think its wise to shine some blue light from outside to the window?

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

overall, your goal should be, lower your pictures contrasts, crush those blacks big time, but allow your picture ot have those realoly bright brights, and the dark darks, whereas a daylight shot will be a little more consistant across the board.

I think you mean increase your picture's contrast, hence the dark dark's bright highlights - yes? (not picking on you just clarifying as many people will be learning from your post).

And here's a link I need to put in my signature at some point, check it out Jerryv
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/MP/

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Papa, now that I rereads your post it sounds like you do mean to both decrease contrast and crush blacks with bright highlights (that don't blow out of course) ... but that seems contradictory and why would you want to decrease contrast?

 

[PaPa]

at night time, just in general, there is not as much contrast. There are many more shades of greys and blacks, thats why u should keep those greys, while having your whites much brighter.

its a hard thing to achieve, but your picture should be quite flatt, which is why your backlights need to be even stronger. More light.

just what i think tho, just one approach.

in day light, the eye and in general, there is more contrast because of the range of light.

in a sense yes, there is a contrast of the lights and darks, but thtas not what im really refering to as a contrast. If your not using enough light for backlight, then your contrast ratio of lighting might be 16 to 1 or even 32 to 1. But thats just your lighting ratio, where as in post, you should be able to eliminate some of the excess pictures contrast to bring many of those levels to the same gloomy faded look you get when your eye sees a dark room with little lighting. Now if you get that lighting contrast ratio just right, you should still have a beautiful backlight while keeping the picture dark and so on..

 

[khmuse]

Getting a "night" look involves a number of things to really "sell" the shot.

The things that don't work for me in these grabs are:

1) The overall illumination level of the room off the kitchen, its just too bright and the wrong color.

2) There needs to be more "dark space" in your scene. You need areas that are not illuminated by your "practical" source that play as fairly dark. These will provide contrast and will "sell" the concept that the practical is the main source of illumination.

3) Speaking of the "practical" in the 4th grab; its not working for me. It appears to be the wrong type of lamp for a kitchen, its the wrong color, and its placed in a location that reads wrong.

Suggestions:

The practical should be the motivation for the actual instruments that you choose to illuminate the scene.

If you are going to shoot day for night, then you really should balance your scene for tungsten sources and use a lot of ND on the window (above the sink) to bring its level down to a realistic value in relationship to the interior.

The room to the right of the kitchen (as seen in grabs 1,2 & 3); should be much darker with a strong hint of high color temperature light on the frame of the door (with a strong angled shadow to sell as a window frame) and perhaps only a slash of light on the desk top. Or use a desk lamp to cast a bit of light on the surface of the desk only, but keep everything else way down in level.

Generally, you need a number of sources and a lot of cutting to get the shadow areas to look right.

I would kill all the light leaks (Duvateen) to start with a fully dark space and then bring in just enough spill (if you intend to use daylight to your advantage) to illuminate just key areas that will read as moonlight.

 

[HorseFilms]

If you want a good tutorial on how to light for night scenes, check out the HorrorFest entry "Thou Shalt Not." khmuse was the DP and did a fantastic job with it.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Take a look at how I lit this shot, from my latest film. I think hard shadows are key, if you want it to look like night... and yellow practical lights work well.

 

[Jerryv]

Wow, Hold on!

You are getting me all wrong, very wrong!
Iam not trying to get a darkness look, iam not trying to suggest nightime -it IS night- iam not doing day for night, and i dont care if the whole kitchen is lit!!!

Who is dishwasing or working in a almost totaly dark kitchen? :huh:



khmuse wrote:

"Getting a "night" look involves a number of things to really "sell" the shot"

ANSWER: iam not trying to sell anything, when i shot this, it WAS night.


The overall illumination level of the room off the kitchen, its just too bright and the wrong color"

ANSWER: i was deeply worried that it was too dark, and too boring, i dont like the lighting, but its not to bright... its 2006, we have lights in our houses!


"and will "sell" the concept that the practical is the main source of illumination. "

ANSWER: actully, i dont want to suggest that... the may be other lights as well.


The thing is, i dont like the lighting, i am asking about how you people feel about this screengrabs and to get suggestions etc... But i think iam misunderstood:

Its a normal household kitchen, -yes, we have lights- at night/evening, a man is dishwashing and discovers something mysterieus -hence the Poll quistion-
I want moonlight shown trow the window, altough i dont think normal humans could see moonlight with the houselights on (what do you think? because i do want moonlight AND indoor lighting)

Thanks for all the help, and i do find the suggestions very helpfull, but not all for this shoot

 

[Jerryv]

Jack Daniel Stanley, interessing link, but is it helpfull?
(i think the highest number looks the most good)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Wich Master Pedestal do you recommend?
[/FONT]

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

... yeah I think its useful or I wouldn't have posted it

It affects how the shadows roll off into blacks, which will get you more dark in the frame which others have alluded to, and it also effects the way the camera handles colors.

bottom line, if you have a guy standing in a fully lit kitchen it's going to look like a guy standing in a fully lit kitchen, and nothing else, and it will not reference time of day in anyway, nor will it create the mood or ambience you seem to be after ... you need to take some stylistic license to suggest a darker look if you want to have either a night time or a mysterious feel ... where is that light coming from? answer :the same place the music is.

lighting has a few distinct purposes
- make things look more 3 dimensional in a two dimensional medium
- can suggest time of day
- help tell the story
- direct the eye
- create mood and ambience

depending on your situation it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense to scrap the other 5 for just 1 of those.

I know the lightinng designers in grad school discussed light coming from lower angles later in the day. Inside this feel can be obtained by using table lamps instead of over head lamps.

If you used floor lamp, counter lamp, or flourescents under the cabinets with very low watt bulbs that won't really throw far enough to make a difference then you can have backlight from the open dorrs in the room. AND if you use your MASTER PED you can make the shadows fall of into black so that those lights just cast pools or spots and then control illumanation on the actors face with some fill. ANd get definition and brightness from backlight.

I could have turned all the lights on in these shots but it wouldn't hav done anything towards getting a nighttime feel, storytelling, or mood.

this is guy washing his hands at a ... sink

If you start watching TV and film critically you will see that this kind of license is taken ALL The time and almost never questioned.

Watch any X Files episode. Wactch Silence of the Lambs. Both of which are not thought to be insanely stylezed like say the Matrix or something, but take this kind of license.

The number of possibilities you are allowing yourself to see is very limited and you are handicapping the impact that light can have on your shoot.

All of those werer shot with the Master Ped very low and lots of light.

 

[Brandon Rice]

X-Files is a good example, indeed...

you don't always have to shoot with the master ped low either... I shoot with it at neutral (0) and crush my blacks in post. This is completely acceptable... but not totally recommended if you haven't shot much of anything in the past (specifically night scenes)

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

yes and this gets into two schools of thought ... what you can do and undo in post

You can crush blacks in post, you cannot uncrush them.

But I feel that sense it plays so directly with light I like to work with both light and the master ped in camera, because I do think it creates a different more organic look than in post and also you could light something with to much spill or wash to get the look you want later when you are working in post. But if you can get it in camera then you got it.

And I would never shoot with the master ped way down in a low light situation ... for night scenes where you can control the light, just play with it, but if you have no control then shoot zero as brandon says.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Yep. Just depends on how you want to do it. As Jack said, he likes seeing it in the camera.

Others, as myself, want to get a nice clean image to work with and then work with it in post.

Both ways will achieve NEAR the same results... find where you're comfortable, and as Jack said, if it's low light and you cannot control it, shoot with a higher Master Ped.

 

[Kholi]

If you used floor lamp, counter lamp, or flourescents under the cabinets with very low watt bulbs that won't really throw far enough to make a difference then you can have backlight from the open dorrs in the room. AND if you use your MASTER PED you can make the shadows fall of into black so that those lights just cast pools or spots and then control illumanation on the actors face with some fill. ANd get definition and brightness from backlight.

Those are great examples of scenes that feel like the time of day they're supposed to, Jack.

I'd like to know, though, what you mean by using lights that are under cabinets and the like. Could you just say "avoid overhead light"? Or is that not the sum of it all?

Going to save your post and pictures to my "reference" folder for later. Great info and examples.

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Yes not so much avoid overhead light as just a big wash obviously.
And like I said I heard lighting designers for theatre talk about low angles for late in the day and you can get that with non over head lights. Though the above was lit with both back and fill lights above the actors.

So the lower angle thing is just something theoritcal that I'm throwing out there.

We achieved the above looks by using very wimpy practicals and then lighting for dimensionality on the actors and lettingg the rest fall off into shadow or black.

If you ever look at the BTS on The Others, there is SO much light. A woman is walking down the staircase holding a candle and all you can see is the circle of light around her in the fiinished film. But in the BTS the whole staircase is lit up and this has to do with how they control the exposure and how the stock rolls off shadow to black (I guess) but you can do that with the master ped in DV or HDV.