Kino Vs. Cool Lights

Macville said:
I would suggest you go ahead and buy the Kinos. It doesn't sound like you'd be happy with the cheaper lights no matter what. Me, I am going to buy the cheaper (and I feel better made) lights and enjoy making beautiful images.

Matthew
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This really is the best thing. He seems to really want a Kino Flo unit so he should just suck it up and do it. Otherwise, there is a strange agenda of some sort. I can't help people with a glass half full mentality. I frankly also don't understand all this public co-miserating about it. When I was just a normal, every day user of lighting (and not a manufacturer) I didn't spend 5 seconds on a board like this complaining about what a potential solution I might buy did or didn't do for that matter. I got the one closest to what I needed and that was fine. If it didn't do what I needed (which is unusual) then I just did better next time...
 
This really is the best thing. He seems to really want a Kino Flo unit so he should just suck it up and do it. Otherwise, there is a strange agenda of some sort. I can't help people with a glass half full mentality. I frankly also don't understand all this public co-miserating about it. When I was just a normal, every day user of lighting (and not a manufacturer) I didn't spend 5 seconds on a board like this complaining about what a potential solution I might buy did or didn't do for that matter. I got the one closest to what I needed and that was fine. If it didn't do what I needed (which is unusual) then I just did better next time...
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I can assure you that I'm not a manufacturer. And you can keep your insults for yourself there, it's a lack of professionalism indeed, you did this on others here as well. Shipping rates are public on bhphotovideo also, so why shouldn't they be public with your products. Do you have something to hide about them? As for designing suggestions: I didn't know about this forum and signed up a few months ago. Again presumptions, speculations and a lot of behind the back blaming. I probably won't buy from you, for personal issues. Period.
 
One last thing of interest and to keep in mind on shipping. I'm not B&H nor do I have their volume of shipping. There are negotiated rates between B&H (or any large company like that) and UPS or Fedex (or whoever). Especially in the area of international shipping and cargo. I can't get the negotiated rates yet as I don't have that level of shipping to take to the table in my favor. It's highly unlikely a quote from my site which comes from the UPS system would yield a "like" quote to the B&H one to Switzerland. Therefore, to compare what we do with B&H and not have the information about their advantage in shipping quotes from UPS is not knowing the complete picture. Volume, volume, volume. I'm sure some will still manage to believe there is a conspiracy of some sort though. But, we've found the UPS Ground within the USA to be pretty reasonable and not terrible. I doubt B&H has an advantage there over us by all that much. I imagine companies like B&H and all the large computer and computer parts discounters have a great advantage in the 2 / 3 day and next day area also.

We do all International Shipping quotes by hand because we found that the automated links to their system weren't accurate for anything but domestic US region quotes and we'd often be charged more--after the fact by UPS on our monthly billing. Since I don't go back and ask for more after the transaction, I'm not going to be left "holding the bag" either. UPS even does this to some customers as some Canadians have told me that its not uncommon for UPS to demand some "processing or handling fees" which have nothing to do with Cool Lights. Anyway, that's why we do it by hand now.

International Shipping quotes that we do are personalized and depend upon a lot of things: volume measured in size or weight (whichever is bigger--that's how you'll be charged), country of origin, of destination, whether its picked up at the source's (my) door. Whether it's going to the destination "door" or held for pickup, etc. Conspiracy to charge you more? Doubtful.
 
I'll back Richard up on the shipping thing -- it's unbelievable how much discount large companies can get. 70% off, 80% off, UPS gives massive discounts to bigger companies that little companies don't get.
 
muroshi said:
I can assure you that I'm not a manufacturer. And you can keep your insults for yourself there, it's a lack of professionalism indeed, you did this on others here as well. Shipping rates are public on bhphotovideo also, so why shouldn't they be public with your products. Do you have something to hide about them? As for designing suggestions: I didn't know about this forum and signed up a few months ago. Again presumptions, speculations and a lot of behind the back blaming. I probably won't buy from you, for personal issues. Period.
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He did not imply that you were a manufacturer, what he said is he did not spend 8 hours on a board bitching about a 5 minute decision that had to do with a.) his budget and b.) what he needed to have to fit his needs and time frame. You're attacking the wrong vendor on here playboy as Richard has been more open than Jannard over at Red with his product development and that's hard to do.
 
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This thread has got some heat in it :)

Look. Seems as though there is a bit too much nitpicking over dollars and cents going on.

If you think of Cool Lights only as a "Cheaper knockoff alternative", then well... you are still getting a good deal. They are cheaper by and large. Sometimes it is 10%, sometimes it is 50 percent.

But, from what I have read from folks who have actually shot with the lights, Cool Lights is anything but a cheaper knockoff. Folks are saying that it can be viewed as a direct competitor to these other light brands. This is good. Competition is good. This also means the quality of the lights and the build quality are good. And, it's still cheaper. What's not to like? If cost is your only concern, then...

Richard certainly has his own unique style, but hey.... at least you know he is straightforward and honest. To me that is good. It is quite obvious that he is passionate about what he is doing, and he is confident in how well his products can perform... This is good.

Doesn't mean it's for every one. It's a viable alternative. It is a direct competitor to other more expensive brands and (from the responses I have seen over the last 6 months on the boards here) we're talking about quality of product. And, it's obviously cheaper.

:)

Later,
Jason
 
Barry_Green said:
I'll back Richard up on the shipping thing -- it's unbelievable how much discount large companies can get. 70% off, 80% off, UPS gives massive discounts to bigger companies that little companies don't get.
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How about that Newegg.com too? Can you believe the prices they offer for overnight / 2 day shipping on some things? Incredible--makes me jealous.
 
Hi Jason,

Yes I do have my own unique style. But you do have to admit, we keep it real in here. ;-)

It's live and uncensored and I imagine we'll have other's drop in from time to time to focus on one thing or offering we're not covering for them yet. Here's another shocker: there may be some threatened by what we do when we want to change some things. And they don't all have to be competitors either. Some just feel the need to keep things the way they are because change can be scary. I call them the "keepers of the status quo." Go over on Cinematography.com and take a look at the negative posts about RED for anyone that hasn't kept up with that. I've stayed out of it for the most part because you can't argue with these people and when they start losing its a common tactic to start calling names and get personal. You'd think RED and Company was the anti-christ or some such thing for coming up with a tool that may change the establishment "a bit".
 
hahahah,

Just came on to this Thread.

ahahahhahah.

Ok, first off, I don't own any Kino's nor Cool lights. So I'm not going to talk about which one is better or compare them because I would be talking out of my ass.

But I will say this, I've already made up my mind. When I have the money I'm buying Cool Lights. :)

I'm relative new to video, but I've been here for over 1 year and I can't say enough good things about Richard. Man, post after post after post filled with useful information. Information that I'm sure has taken him a lot of time and effort to compile. But he gives it all away.

I have to say, its pretty inspiring. I also like to tinker, and I've made some products for myself that I in the process of marketing. But when I see Richard, just informing everyone of how he does things, where to get stuff, etc... I think, man I should also be more forthcoming. And I'm trying.

So Richard, let me take this opportunity to personally and publicly thank you for all your help, efforts, and information. I hope you become rich, and remember to provide great products at very reasonable prices for the indie community.

Thank You,

Luis Sinibaldi

ps: dregenthal, this world in my opinion is too friken p.c. so when Richard makes a comment about a company CEO not posting and helping the Indie Filmaking Community here at DVXuser and its true, then so be it. You don't like it, how about not reading any of his posts. Just skip them. You don't like porn, change the channel. Don't like violence, then don't rent that movie. etc...
I personally like people that voice their opinion, its not like he called the guy names or anything. He is just saying Hey, I'M HERE, HE IS NOT. And its true.
Thanks for being here Richard.
 
Yeah, P.C. A kind of censorship. Others can have opinions but not sponsors or manufacturers. The problem is, I have a video camera and other equipment too, and if I didn't have opinions, I don't see how I could do better in offerings to people. If I wasn't an opinionated user of this stuff then I wouldn't have practical knowledge to contribute to design and usability. That's the kind of thing that drives R&D in inventive directions. Without the ability to see what's lacking (and comment yourself and solicit comments) you can't do better.

Thanks for your kind words Luis, I must admit I didn't understand how someone could take that personally. Seemed like something was "spiked in the water" on this thread that was getting everyone excited.

As many here know, Luis is on a similar track to the one I'm on, but doing good things with small LCD HD monitors which is an area sorely lacking in solutions. I was going to look at that at some point but Luis is on the trail so-to-speak so I think we can expect many more good things there. Don't be surprised if the trail leads him here to China either ;-). People may be joking about Chinese quality now, but in a few years they won't be joking just like the track that Japan has been on--China is right behind them.

It all starts with someone saying "what's being offered today doesn't make sense and the lack of choices is a serious problem." Things have to be driven into commodity status before they can be democratized. From there, what you may do about finding a solution to the lack (or not do about it) is all based around your personality and how far you'll go to prove your point; how long you're willing to "stand in the unknowingness and discomfort" of finding the solution to the problem is key to whether you'll be successful. And how far you're willing to go to discover it--in distance or in effort. There will be pain...

None of this is really any different from producing/directing a film for that matter. It starts as a vision, gathers momentum and resources, is a mess for a while and then all comes together with that one person's well-developed vision and plan that they can adequately communicate to all the others involved and keep them motivated and on the right track. Not giving up themselves and not letting the team give up either.

Anyway, how's the project going Luis? Last I heard, it is usable with the RED right? That's where I'd need one for sure.
 
here's an honest opinion from a cool lights owner. i have the 4 light and 6 light models. i have used the kino diva and 4 bank quite a bit as well so i know all the pros and cons. bottom line, the quality of light from the coollights is very comparable to the diva. the big differences in my mind are construction, versatility and price. obviously the coollights are way easier on the wallet than the kino's. on the other hand, no question the construction and design of the kino's are far superior to the coollights. i don't think the coollights would survive long in a rental situation or with daily use on a truck. the barndoors don't like to stay open. i have had to clamp or tape them up in the past. the switches and internal wiring isn't the best. i received one of my lights not working and had to resolder one of the internal wires. overall, the lights are very heavy and kind of clunky, squeaky, etc. i use mine roughly once a week and i try to go easy on them. regardless, they are quickly showing their age and getting pretty beat up. i still think they are a good deal considering the high cost of the major brand flo's. i think they would make a great permanent install in a studio. i just don't think they are made to withstand daily hauling around and feel like they just won't last as long as some of my other lights.

no doubt about it. kino's blow them out of the water but anyone expecting otherwise at this price is dreaming.
 
But these are the 4 and 6 bank models that Cool Lights has been offering for a while that you're talking about, right?

The 'kino-type' lights that he will be releasing aren't out yet, if I'm not mistaken.
Not saying anything in your review is wrong - just saying there are specific lights designed much closer to the design of kinos which will be coming out soon.
 
Cheezewezzel,
Thanks for that input its good to hear the good and the bad from someone that has used both.
Also, I think Luis Caffesse is right. the new ones are supposed to be closer to the Kinos.
Also, I personally only know of one guy who owns 2 Kino lights. And one of his lights was problematic, not striking the bulb every time, so he had to send it in for service. I think he had to do it twice. So even the big boys are not perfect.
 
cheezweezl said:
here's an honest opinion from a cool lights owner. i have the 4 light and 6 light models. i have used the kino diva and 4 bank quite a bit as well so i know all the pros and cons. bottom line, the quality of light from the coollights is very comparable to the diva. the big differences in my mind are construction, versatility and price. obviously the coollights are way easier on the wallet than the kino's. on the other hand, no question the construction and design of the kino's are far superior to the coollights. i don't think the coollights would survive long in a rental situation or with daily use on a truck. the barndoors don't like to stay open. i have had to clamp or tape them up in the past. the switches and internal wiring isn't the best. i received one of my lights not working and had to resolder one of the internal wires. overall, the lights are very heavy and kind of clunky, squeaky, etc. i use mine roughly once a week and i try to go easy on them. regardless, they are quickly showing their age and getting pretty beat up. i still think they are a good deal considering the high cost of the major brand flo's. i think they would make a great permanent install in a studio. i just don't think they are made to withstand daily hauling around and feel like they just won't last as long as some of my other lights.

no doubt about it. kino's blow them out of the water but anyone expecting otherwise at this price is dreaming.
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Hi cheezwhezl,

I'm struggling with this because it's not quite the sequence of events and I have trouble viewing it as a positive review. Both the posts just after yours caught the basic flaw in your review: it's not an apples to apples comparison. You've also vastly oversimplified the issues you had and the events. In a nutshell, you bought a 455, it had an issue, I helped you with some debugging tips (because there wasn't time for the normal return process based on a constraint you had) and you said you were happy and bought a 655 very soon after.

I do remember this issue (you first sent me an email on 4/20 informing me that one bank of your CL-455 wasn't working) and we had to lead you through the fix rather than go through our normal RMA process as you had a shoot coming in just a few days after you received the light. You said you were cool with this in the name of getting running quickly--so I'm not sure why you feel the need now to report that you had to resolder a wire back then (and not tell the rest of the story about your time constraints or that you bought another fixture from me a couple of weeks later). You're leaving an impression that you were totally left on your own without support--and that is not the case. I just rechecked the email exchange and I didn't see anything about being unhappy afterwards and we got the second order too. I didn't see any emails at all about barndoor issues.

I recently said on a different thread that a broken wire or wire which comes out of a ballast connection is the most common type of problem (in the small 3% of failures we've had this year) and very easily fixed by our technician. Not everyone has a broken wire though. And hardly anyone fixed any problem on their own unless they just wanted to because they had the skillset.

We would have fixed it for you as we do for anyone who has time to go through the RMA process. You actually ordered a CL-655 shortly after this event (on 5/3). If it was "clunky" why did you order the second light? What made you change your mind after all that now about 6 months later to decide to come report it all here publicly on this particular negative thread?

Personally, I understand that if I don't use something in the manner in which it was designed--then I'm leaving myself open to attack on that point by a manufacturer which would rightly be troubled by the products misuse and the misunderstandings that it creates by an improper or unprofessional review based on using it in ways it wasn't meant to be. If I use something in a manner in which it wasn't meant to be or designed to be, then the results I get would normally be kept to myself and I wouldn't blame the manufacturer or make statements like "no doubt about it, kino's blow them out of the water."

Just in case anyone doesn't understand, the current models we have out now are "studio models" and are made for fixed positioning in a studio as are most of the metal flo models out on the market now. I already said that in post two of this thread. You won't find too many competitor location portable fixtures available and you have to understand that there is a distinction. Studio models (studio means fixed on a grid or stand and mostly staying in the studio) aren't made for hauling around although some of our customers do that in lieu of a portable/location fixture which we've been working on and are coming out with a model soon. While the powder coating on the metal is tough, it won't survive for long when its being hauled all over the place in no particular carrying case or whatever. I would expect it to be scratched in such conditions. It's not designed for the rental market by the way nor is a Parabeam. Nor have I ever implied that the rental market would want to scoop them up. It's designed to lower the cost of lighting for individual users so they won't have to rent anymore. To make it possible to outfit a studio with affordable lighting. If a fixture is so expensive someone can't afford it, then I guess its appropriate for the rental market.

Did you know that Kino makes studio models too--out of metal? I pointed that out at the beginning of the thread. Parabeam is one such line that uses the 55w tube. Apples to apples is the best and most fair way to compare or review if you really want to do a review in an unbiased and professional way that won't draw fire. These metal models are made to compete with all the other metal studio models out there. The Diva is a location fixture like our forthcoming x55P/x55PMD series.

Wouldn't it be better to compare the new series to the Diva rather than a metal studio fixture to a plastic location fixture? Isn't it appropriate to review "like" products as opposed to ones that aren't alike or in different classes? Is it appropriate to review a desktop computer for instance and say "You know this thing really isn't all that portable! An IBM laptop blows it away for portability." If you understand that there are different classes of products for different uses, then your review might seem not very comprehensive or that you took that into account.

Since you've already done a review here though, have you used or hauled a Kino Parabeam around to see how it would stand up? To compare the weight with ours and there's? How do their barndoors do over time and lots of transport in and out of locations? Did you know for instance that barndoors on our studio models (and some other competitor studio models) are normally adjustable to any amount of stickiness you like with a screwdriver adjustment along the many copper tabs that create a tension on the support rod? It's entirely possible that you may need to tighten one of those up but that can happen on any barndoor that uses this very common method of hinging--the screws can work their way lose over time and with lots of transport. We didn't invent that method of hinging, and many types of stage and studio fixtures use it. A couple of customers had that issue with screws that weren't tightened as well as they could be and I explained it to them how to easily fix it either on the phone or in an email--with a screwdriver. I can't do that if someone doesn't tell me they have the issue.

I think the pictures on our website are clearer, larger and show more angles than any other competitor than I can think of including Kino Flo. No tiny little thumbnails that can't be enlarged like on some sites. A CL-455 or CL-655 can't possibly be mistaken for a Diva 400 or a 4 Bank Select. It's clearly made out of metal from the pictures we show and we say as much in the specifications area of the product pages. You had the 455 first, you saw it was metal. You had to realize the 655 would be too.

I might be able to understand points for improvement in a private email or a public review of apples to apples products being used in exactly the ways they were designed for (studio fixtures in a studio -- location fixtures as portables), but piling on this thread just comes off as an attack on Cool Lights, right after I was pointing out that some detractors didn't have any real incidents to point to. Please bring professional and unbiased reviews here without emotional statements like "kino blows them away" while comparing like models to like models. Tell the whole story too, not just an abbreviation if there's some negative you experienced and how we handled it.
 
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Hey Richard,
This is what I like about you, always responding to peoples comments.
Also, don't worry I took those previous comments with a grain of salt. (its funny how people always leave things out when its convenient) I'm still sold on your fixtures.
Thanks for all your input and your great efforts to provide awesome lights to the low budget independents out there. :)
 
Wow Richard lighten up, I thought Cheezwhezl was a good review. I actually came away with an improved vision of your lights. He stated that they make a great studio light, but not so good location light, in that regard the Kinos are better. Price wise you blow Kiinos out of the water. You got to develop a thick skin, people are going to give you bad reviews sometimes for no other reason than jealousy of your success. If I retorted to everyone who has ever criticed my camera work, thats all I'd ever get done. I listen to them all and take any constructive crticism out of the critque and go on. If you attack those that criticise soon no one will and your product will never improve.

I probably will never buy a cool lioght because you manufacture in China. Not only is Chinese manufacturing always a quality concern of mine, but I don't approve of the sweat shops and the treatment of the populace there. So it is a personal issue that guides me away. Anyway, after reading that posting, when asked by students, I'll tell them, Great studio lights, Great price but not good for location shooting, without his post I would have made no recommendation. Best of luck!

G
 
Hi Gopher,

I'm from Oklahoma too by the way...

When something is your creation you could take it personally--particularly at the tail end of the "thread that wouldn't die." And I see things written here that affect me differently from anyone else precisely because it is my product and I'm quite passionate about this business. When someone is going to deliver a review, its normally more comprehensive than 1 paragraph and shows all sides and how any issue was fixed and by who and if there's a comparison, its to a truly "alike" product. It might also describe that they were happy enough to buy a second product if that was the case. He made it sound like he bought both and then was unhappy and we did nothing about it.

I can definitely take criticism when done in appropriate and discrete ways, but on a public forum its a bit tough to handle and you wonder what's the agenda sometimes. People have told me of shortcomings or areas for improvement in private emails and we've listened and done a lot of it in our current manufacturing run. We've held long design threads where people told me I was on the wrong track and I changed based on their ideas for instance. Now that was constructive criticism and I do know the difference. When someone blind sides you on a thread like this, particularly after you believed they were happy, well let's just say its strange and there are normal channels for getting your needs met. And the closing line of his review says what he really wanted to communicate despite any other positive comment therein. I think some might be getting upset with me precisely because I do answer them and they expect to be able to just say something and let that hang in the air forever for others to think about. There usually is another side though.

I just noticed that our friends cheezwhezl and dregenthal posted on another Cool Lights thread elsewhere at the end of September:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110747


Never saw that thread before today so I guess I'm not surprised now they both showed up on this thread too.

Yes, you're exactly right there will always be some critics on any creation you do. Some will like, some won't. Some will have entirely personal reasons that have nothing to do with logic. What you hope for is that most will like it and that will balance out the detractors. It would just seem weird to me if I left what they say hanging in the air here though, without injecting some facts that might be missing for instance or more of the context that was left out. They might not have done it on purpose but I still feel the need to set the record straight so there aren't mis-perceptions.

Anyway, it just seems to me there is an art to reviewing something and if the review isn't comprehensive or apples to apples, isn't it fair to point that out if its your product being reviewed? I just think if you're going to do a review, then review between two desktops or two laptops but don't compare a desktop to a laptop because it just isn't interesting unless the point is to say that the desktop doesn't work well as a portable--but we already know that ;-).
 
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hey richard,

i was happy with them and still am. for the money they are fine. it's just that now that i have had them awhile, they are starting to get beat as all gear does. they just aren't holding up as well as a lot of my other gear. i haven't bothered you with the barndoor issue. it's a workaround but not worth getting into. i was just being honest in my review. they may not be apples to apples with the kinos but i saw a few people say that the coollights are built more solid than kinos and it's kinda misleading to anyone looking at this, especially if it sways their purchase decision. i know you are trying to sell your product here but let's keep it real. coollights are great if that is all you can afford or if they won't be traveling or they won't get used much. but if you want something that will withstand the rigors of daily use and abuse, go another route.

i assure you i have no agenda here. i am not selling or promoting anyone else's products or my own. this forum is a place where we get together and answer each other's questions. i was only contributing. you seem defensive and it's doesn't look very professional. going thru and bringing up posts from the past to discredit my opinion is borderline nuts. whatever, you win.
 
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