Kino Vs. Cool Lights
- Thread starter Abaddon
- Start date
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
We have hundreds of users on here but I only knew of one that had a Kino Flo Diva. I think the whole point is that most of them didn't want to spend that kind of money and were glad to find us. With our metal models the comparison was best made to the Kino metal studio models when considering weight. They're comparable in weight to Parabeam or those types.
Light output and quality will be about the same across all the 55w tube models though as long as you use good ballasts and we do. Getting back to portable fixture comparisons, now that we will soon have plastic lightweight models, I don't see so many advantages to a Diva at over $1000 with all the stuff you need to get to make it work.
I can't remember for sure who it was of my customers though that had the Diva. Perhaps they'll chime in here if they see this post.
Light output and quality will be about the same across all the 55w tube models though as long as you use good ballasts and we do. Getting back to portable fixture comparisons, now that we will soon have plastic lightweight models, I don't see so many advantages to a Diva at over $1000 with all the stuff you need to get to make it work.
I can't remember for sure who it was of my customers though that had the Diva. Perhaps they'll chime in here if they see this post.
Well, I would be glad to hear some feedback about coollights also. But they don't seem so cheap anymore like it was the early goal, even in comparison to kinoflo. Yeah, you pay about 1/3 more for kinoflo stuff, but it's proven quality. And on the coollights site there is stated that Richard will rise prices very soon.
Keep in mind that light's are a life-time investment.
Keep in mind that light's are a life-time investment.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Hmm. Sounds like someone's a bit cranky today ;-).
I'm sorry, where on my site does it say that "Richard will rise prices very soon"? I don't remember that or are you interpreting something or perhaps just clairvoyant?
By the way, I think you'll find its more than a third particularly if you don't need dimmable which isn't even an option with Kino Flo or if you can live with metal models which many do.
Lets do a quick apples to apples comparison though. First one of our studio models against their closest comparable model.
From B&H you can get a Kino Studio Parabeam 200 which goes for the really great bargain price of $986.95. Weight is 17.2 lbs. That is a 120v only model. Oh and tubes are not included. An extra $43 for tubes at $21.50 each. Total 1029.95. And, I just noticed that barn doors aren't included that's another $218.95. But we'll leave that off, you'll get the idea if you're being truthful with yourself.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...R_200_120_Parabeam_200_Fluorescent_Light.html
Cool Lights 2x55w CL-255 $169 including tubes and barndoors. About 15 lbs in weight. That's a difference of $860.95 or something like 84% not considering the extra barndoor charge of the parabeam. How much savings would you like? No, we don't do DMX or dimming but plenty of people have been happy with that. A future dimming version of the CL-255 will be $210 when we have it or about $40 higher than the non-dimming one. A dimming version of the CL-455 studio model is coming soon in November and will be $479. That's tons less than any dimming 4x55 unit I know about. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit on dimming ballasts and why they are more expensive than non-dimming ones. What other manufacturer offers dimming in this range?
Next, lets look at the Diva 400. From B&H a Universal Voltage model like ours is $1014.95 without tubes. $86 extra for tubes is $1100.95.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...120U_Diva_Lite_400_Universal_Fluorescent.html
What a scam, a universal voltage ballast costs a few dollars more than a regular one.
The 110v only model of the Diva 400 is $759.95 + $86 for tubes or $845.95. LOL. Try using that in Switzerland.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._400_120_Diva_Lite_400_Fluorescent_Light.html
Cool Lights CL-455P (non-dimming) $425. CL-455PMD (dimming) $585. Both including tubes and both universal voltage as standard. More expensive than the metal studio Cool Lights models because they have specialized, hard to find parts like the lollipop, custom edge protection channel extrusions and a special polycarbonate hollow plastic housing which makes it tougher than a Diva overall. Weight of both Diva and CL-455P is comparable at about 9lbs. Anyway, that's a savings of 50% for the non-dimming and 30% for the dimming version. However if you compare our models which are all universal voltage to their universal voltage one (and we don't charge extra for that), the savings is 59% for non-dimming and 42% for dimming.
My friend, if it wasn't for people like me their prices would still be astronomical, there wouldn't be heavy dealer discounting from places like B&H and there wouldn't be choices. It's the competitive pressure on them from all the other entrants in the fluorescent fixture arena that has made them come down from "way too much" to just "too much." And these are prices we "enjoy" in North America. Just try to find such a price on a Diva in Europe or other parts of the world.
Good luck with your purchases Muroshi...
I'm sorry, where on my site does it say that "Richard will rise prices very soon"? I don't remember that or are you interpreting something or perhaps just clairvoyant?
By the way, I think you'll find its more than a third particularly if you don't need dimmable which isn't even an option with Kino Flo or if you can live with metal models which many do.
Lets do a quick apples to apples comparison though. First one of our studio models against their closest comparable model.
From B&H you can get a Kino Studio Parabeam 200 which goes for the really great bargain price of $986.95. Weight is 17.2 lbs. That is a 120v only model. Oh and tubes are not included. An extra $43 for tubes at $21.50 each. Total 1029.95. And, I just noticed that barn doors aren't included that's another $218.95. But we'll leave that off, you'll get the idea if you're being truthful with yourself.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...R_200_120_Parabeam_200_Fluorescent_Light.html
Cool Lights 2x55w CL-255 $169 including tubes and barndoors. About 15 lbs in weight. That's a difference of $860.95 or something like 84% not considering the extra barndoor charge of the parabeam. How much savings would you like? No, we don't do DMX or dimming but plenty of people have been happy with that. A future dimming version of the CL-255 will be $210 when we have it or about $40 higher than the non-dimming one. A dimming version of the CL-455 studio model is coming soon in November and will be $479. That's tons less than any dimming 4x55 unit I know about. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit on dimming ballasts and why they are more expensive than non-dimming ones. What other manufacturer offers dimming in this range?
Next, lets look at the Diva 400. From B&H a Universal Voltage model like ours is $1014.95 without tubes. $86 extra for tubes is $1100.95.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...120U_Diva_Lite_400_Universal_Fluorescent.html
What a scam, a universal voltage ballast costs a few dollars more than a regular one.
The 110v only model of the Diva 400 is $759.95 + $86 for tubes or $845.95. LOL. Try using that in Switzerland.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._400_120_Diva_Lite_400_Fluorescent_Light.html
Cool Lights CL-455P (non-dimming) $425. CL-455PMD (dimming) $585. Both including tubes and both universal voltage as standard. More expensive than the metal studio Cool Lights models because they have specialized, hard to find parts like the lollipop, custom edge protection channel extrusions and a special polycarbonate hollow plastic housing which makes it tougher than a Diva overall. Weight of both Diva and CL-455P is comparable at about 9lbs. Anyway, that's a savings of 50% for the non-dimming and 30% for the dimming version. However if you compare our models which are all universal voltage to their universal voltage one (and we don't charge extra for that), the savings is 59% for non-dimming and 42% for dimming.
My friend, if it wasn't for people like me their prices would still be astronomical, there wouldn't be heavy dealer discounting from places like B&H and there wouldn't be choices. It's the competitive pressure on them from all the other entrants in the fluorescent fixture arena that has made them come down from "way too much" to just "too much." And these are prices we "enjoy" in North America. Just try to find such a price on a Diva in Europe or other parts of the world.
Good luck with your purchases Muroshi...
Last edited:
dregenthal
Veteran
I can not awnser your question re: cool lights . . . but at the risk of being called cranky (too) by a sponsor with a vested interest in selling his product, I can say this:
I have a full set of Arri Fresnels and a Kino Flow Diva that I continue to be quite pleased with.
I have also owned other noname lights, (not cool lights) and suffered the consequences of those savings.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
No its just "cranky" to post badly researched information and innuendos from someone else who is not a customer of mine and has probably never even seen one of our products.
Richard, I haven't made a selection up to this point. But on the specific model I'm talking about, which is the Diva Lite 400, you're more or less in the range of 1/3 less like I said. There are other factors for me to consider also: duty and shipping. It's often a different story to buy something in Germany than from China with the amount of just one lighthead. And I just can drive to the supplier if I have an issue.
And about your portable 455w head you say on your website:
Normally $759
It's still less than a Diva, but as the gap is getting smaller it's like I said: I've seen the quality of it already, and most cheaper stuff I bought so far didn't pay off. That doesn't mean yours of course. It's just a question of taking the risk or not.
And about your portable 455w head you say on your website:
Normally $759
It's still less than a Diva, but as the gap is getting smaller it's like I said: I've seen the quality of it already, and most cheaper stuff I bought so far didn't pay off. That doesn't mean yours of course. It's just a question of taking the risk or not.
Macville
Well-known member
Actually, the gap is far bigger than you think. At the current pricing, the same model in the Kino is $1,100.95 (4 lamp, dimming.) Richard is offering the same thing (actually better b/c of better color temp and better plastic) for 1/2 that. I may be incorrect in saying this (this is what I've seen in the past), but Richard doesn't really raise prices much. At $585, it's a steal.
Another thing to consider is that far as quality goes, Kino probably has everything made in China also (they don't advertise made in the US like companies normally advertise) Richard has taken the flaws of the Diva and corrected them. I think you'll probably find in the end that for less, you'll get a better product. His products have proven themselves here and I don't expect this to be any different.
Matthew
Another thing to consider is that far as quality goes, Kino probably has everything made in China also (they don't advertise made in the US like companies normally advertise) Richard has taken the flaws of the Diva and corrected them. I think you'll probably find in the end that for less, you'll get a better product. His products have proven themselves here and I don't expect this to be any different.
Matthew
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
It's better to deal in the here and now with what we know. Today its $589. Tomorrow the world could end too, but I'll continue on like I think its going to be the same in the morning. ;-)
With the other price, I'm showing the price that it could be based on what the other competition is doing like Kino for instance. What I would raise it to if I had a dealer network where there needed to be fat padded in to give them a profit.
It doesn't say the price is going to raise and it hasn't raised so let's just deal with what we know now, not what we think might happen or conjecture. Keeping this thread to facts, real experiences and not feelings or what we think might happen will keep the atmosphere around here from turning negative and leads to constructive talks where people learn things they might not have known for instance.
Everyone has a choice to make on how they spend their dollars and no manufacturer/dealer will win every customer in lighting, cars, cameras or even breakfast cereal, so I don't sweat it in any case if some don't vibrate at my frequency. Or are not risk takers like me. Heck I'm in line for the RED camera and that was considered risky by some in 2006 when I signed up. Living in China is risky. Dealing with some factories here is risky. I haven't found there to be much gain without risk.
In any case, there are plenty that are thankful for what we're doing (if only even 30% which some would consider good by the way and that's only one product you picked or were interested in. The gains are more like 75% or more on many of the other products--who else is trying to do what I'm doing in the HMI area?). I don't spend much time thinking about those I can't help for whatever reason, in fact I really don't do all that much selling. What I'm doing sells itself. But for now, in any case, it's time to go out dancing. Later...
Last edited:
abraham
Well-known member
This thread has really caught my interest. My brother Adam (TheMacB) and I are going to have to buck up and buy some lights, and it appears cool lights is the obvious way to go, at least from a budget standpoint.
We're new to this -- and i'm certainly not a techie. So is there any footage, any stills of the lights in use? I noticed on the website there's that green screen photo, but how about some real photography?
We're new to this -- and i'm certainly not a techie. So is there any footage, any stills of the lights in use? I noticed on the website there's that green screen photo, but how about some real photography?
Macville
Well-known member
JasonFox
Internet Sensation
They're lights. Do you really need to see them in action? I'm not trying to be jerk, it's just that the main issue with Cool Lights is generally "are they as good as the more expensive ones." As the owner of the 4x55 fixture, I say yes, yes they are. You won't get anything from a side-by-side comparison of a scene lit with a Kino and a scene lit with Cool Lights because they'll look virtually identical. Although maybe that is what you want to see. Hmmm.
abraham
Well-known member
Nah Jason Fox, you're not a jerk. But as I said, I'm not a techie. And you're right, my question is sort of like the one you stated - though i probably would've phrased it differently, "can one acheive the same look with these less expensive lights as one could with the expensive ones?" and you say, "yes, abraham, you can"
However, it's always nice to have pictures, wouldn't you agree? And a picture would clear up any skeptics' opinions -- like those stated above on this thread: something about 'are you willing to take the risk with something less expensive' and 'less expensive hasn't worked out for me in the past'
So...i dunno, I don't think it's stupid to ask for a look.
Spartacus
Veteran
589€ Netto fuer die CoolLight"Diva" (ohne Dimmer) inkl. Fracht + Zoll ca.4% 615€
1131€ Netto fuer die 400er Diva bei MBF in Frankfurt + 4 tubes 120€ 1251€
I can´t tell about the quality of the portable CoolLight Flo, since it ain´t out yet (or is it...?) , but Richard has been pretty outspoken about the developement/evaluation process for his product line of lights here on DVXuser.
I believe he is a smart business man and as such, he cannot afford making promises he later can´t keep, this would be his commercial suicide.
As someone who ownes and rents Kinos, I can only say:
Fluos ain´t rocket science :evil:
And guess what: even Kinos fail and break :furious3:
Last edited:
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
"Fluos ain't rocket science"
LOL! Yup, you got it. If I had found a way to screw up fluorescent fixtures that would have indeed been my commercial suicide.
Jason also has a great quote here. Something to the effect of "They work and you won't see a difference."
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone asks me if they can see a side by side comparison or screen grabs. As I stated, most of my customers didn't buy a Kino because they thought they were overpriced so it wouldn't be all that logical to find someone that had one unless it's a seasoned pro just adding more stuff to his kit and he tries us out; but I am confident that you won't see a difference when such a test is made. I spent a great deal of time picking the ballast and bulbs that I have and this is why I'm confident in reliability as well as photometric results. And as Matt "macville" stated all the competitor products are probably made right here in China just like mine. I even have talked to a bulb factory that claims to OEM for Kino Flo bulbs--but you can't prove it one way or another really.
The reason you don't see more postings and screen grabs is because a lot of my customers are heads down type of people that just get to work. They don't have time to follow all this or route for me because they have lives and I generally don't prompt them to post either because overall I like to keep things spontaneous and unrehearsed--just like what's going on right now. This forum needs a bit of spark occasionally. They're the same types (like me) that would buy a Honda vs. the Acura because they don't believe there's all that much difference under the hood. If you're concerned about status or superficial things you'd probably go for the Acura believing somehow that because it's more expensive it's better. Also, if you're really concerned about service in another country, no, we are not there yet. In order to finance that, the price of the products has to go up. You can't have one without the other--its a choice to make. RED doesn't have a dealer network but somehow they're finding customers just as I am. For every one who finds some reason to object, there are 100 more out there spending money with us. If you buy into the other existing system though out of fear of lack of support, then don't ***** about prices. Your dollar is the vote, not your voice. These large manufacturers don't care about you for the most part or what you want. And read the fine print--a "complete system" may not be all that complete.
Photos and screen grabs: every product picture on my site was taken using Cool Lights fixtures--mostly daylight tubes using either the CL-SFT1 or a CL-455. But, what if you don't like my photography or videography style for that matter? What if you don't like my choice of how I lit it independently of the quality of the light? What if I used photo/color correction? What if the quality of the video compression for web streaming makes it look terrible? These kinds of tests are meaningless, subject to the viewers taste and ability to discern what they see and you can't prove one way or another what's behind it. I could put the most beautifully lit photograph on my site, lit by a Kino Flo and say it was lit by my fixture if I was really trying to deceive people and would you know the difference? In the end, it all comes down to confidence in the business owner and whether they're misleading you or not and whether their products will meet all your criteria.
You don't know me or haven't known me all that long. It's all about momentum and building it up in starting any business. Kino Flo's been around about 20 years and they had all this startup crap, disbelief, inertia stuff to work through (and more) before they got to the momentum level they are at now. My job won't be so hard as theirs, nor will it take as long, because we're living in a vastly different time now and marketing is done completely different at this point as Jason, our resident marketing expert, will no doubt agree.
I had big plans for doing lots of stuff with the Cool Lights Video Magazine for showing products in action, lighting tutorials, etc.; but just haven't had so much time to pick up my video camera since I got into this business. I did all of two VLOG entries in there back in January. One reason is I'm a creature of the studio and I sold my house and studio in early 2006 when I started down this road and moved to China. I'm a bit embarrassed just to pick up a camera and show what I'm up to using my living room as the backdrop. It's just not that inspiring. I'm also working with an abbreviated setup here too and don't have all my beloved equipment like my Newtek VTNT system which would be hell to ship here and probably be destroyed in the process. I love to have a pro environment to work in with lots of space and headroom and I haven't found that here yet in China. I keep asking my wife to find a space for me but she's as busy as I am with all the stuff we have to manage to get these products out. I'll even have an expensive RED camera sitting on the shelf soon with big plans for all kinds of video projects I want to do some day. Anyway, if I had a more inspiring work/studio environment and a bit more time, there are lots of interesting things I could do. It's something about keeping promises that I'm busy with right now as Spartacus said.
LOL! Yup, you got it. If I had found a way to screw up fluorescent fixtures that would have indeed been my commercial suicide.
Jason also has a great quote here. Something to the effect of "They work and you won't see a difference."
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone asks me if they can see a side by side comparison or screen grabs. As I stated, most of my customers didn't buy a Kino because they thought they were overpriced so it wouldn't be all that logical to find someone that had one unless it's a seasoned pro just adding more stuff to his kit and he tries us out; but I am confident that you won't see a difference when such a test is made. I spent a great deal of time picking the ballast and bulbs that I have and this is why I'm confident in reliability as well as photometric results. And as Matt "macville" stated all the competitor products are probably made right here in China just like mine. I even have talked to a bulb factory that claims to OEM for Kino Flo bulbs--but you can't prove it one way or another really.
The reason you don't see more postings and screen grabs is because a lot of my customers are heads down type of people that just get to work. They don't have time to follow all this or route for me because they have lives and I generally don't prompt them to post either because overall I like to keep things spontaneous and unrehearsed--just like what's going on right now. This forum needs a bit of spark occasionally. They're the same types (like me) that would buy a Honda vs. the Acura because they don't believe there's all that much difference under the hood. If you're concerned about status or superficial things you'd probably go for the Acura believing somehow that because it's more expensive it's better. Also, if you're really concerned about service in another country, no, we are not there yet. In order to finance that, the price of the products has to go up. You can't have one without the other--its a choice to make. RED doesn't have a dealer network but somehow they're finding customers just as I am. For every one who finds some reason to object, there are 100 more out there spending money with us. If you buy into the other existing system though out of fear of lack of support, then don't ***** about prices. Your dollar is the vote, not your voice. These large manufacturers don't care about you for the most part or what you want. And read the fine print--a "complete system" may not be all that complete.
Photos and screen grabs: every product picture on my site was taken using Cool Lights fixtures--mostly daylight tubes using either the CL-SFT1 or a CL-455. But, what if you don't like my photography or videography style for that matter? What if you don't like my choice of how I lit it independently of the quality of the light? What if I used photo/color correction? What if the quality of the video compression for web streaming makes it look terrible? These kinds of tests are meaningless, subject to the viewers taste and ability to discern what they see and you can't prove one way or another what's behind it. I could put the most beautifully lit photograph on my site, lit by a Kino Flo and say it was lit by my fixture if I was really trying to deceive people and would you know the difference? In the end, it all comes down to confidence in the business owner and whether they're misleading you or not and whether their products will meet all your criteria.
You don't know me or haven't known me all that long. It's all about momentum and building it up in starting any business. Kino Flo's been around about 20 years and they had all this startup crap, disbelief, inertia stuff to work through (and more) before they got to the momentum level they are at now. My job won't be so hard as theirs, nor will it take as long, because we're living in a vastly different time now and marketing is done completely different at this point as Jason, our resident marketing expert, will no doubt agree.
I had big plans for doing lots of stuff with the Cool Lights Video Magazine for showing products in action, lighting tutorials, etc.; but just haven't had so much time to pick up my video camera since I got into this business. I did all of two VLOG entries in there back in January. One reason is I'm a creature of the studio and I sold my house and studio in early 2006 when I started down this road and moved to China. I'm a bit embarrassed just to pick up a camera and show what I'm up to using my living room as the backdrop. It's just not that inspiring. I'm also working with an abbreviated setup here too and don't have all my beloved equipment like my Newtek VTNT system which would be hell to ship here and probably be destroyed in the process. I love to have a pro environment to work in with lots of space and headroom and I haven't found that here yet in China. I keep asking my wife to find a space for me but she's as busy as I am with all the stuff we have to manage to get these products out. I'll even have an expensive RED camera sitting on the shelf soon with big plans for all kinds of video projects I want to do some day. Anyway, if I had a more inspiring work/studio environment and a bit more time, there are lots of interesting things I could do. It's something about keeping promises that I'm busy with right now as Spartacus said.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
I answered the part about pictures in the previous post but on the subject of risk over less expensive things here's something to think about.
The vast majority of stuff that's "Made in China" is made by proxy so to speak. Someone in another country decides to sell "X" and contacts a trading company in China to manufacture or source "X". They (wrongly) believe that they can manage this process through the trading company and the quality will be just fine. WRONG!
You have to tell them what you want very specifically, you have to be here, you have to practice management by walking around. You have to watch what's going on yourself or put someone "invested" on that process to make sure it goes right. Most exporters don't do that and they get what they deserve. Bad quality stuff where the corners were cut. That's why I spend most of the year here now because I'm in their face constantly critiquing what's going on, etc. I know exactly what people need and I spend a lot of time telling factories how they need to produce something that will work for my market.
It just doesn't work all that well to manage it by proxy or buy some off the shelf product and sell it as a middle man.
The Made in China quality issue stated another way: its not the factory's fault that produced the shoddy product. They're producing what they were asked to, a cheap product with the means they have at their disposal and their methods they've been using for a long time. They don't have the staff or the budget for quality control. I would say it's the orderer or intermediate middle man exporter of the product that's at fault. He's at fault for not specifying what he wants correctly and succinctly; he's at fault for not verifying the results of his specification. He's at fault for being innocent or ignorant of how things work over here; He's at fault for not being invested in the process like he should be.
In my case, I know what people want, I am specifying and checking results and watching over the quality control where necessary. When things do break, no one has been left behind that I know about by the way. If someone didn't contact me for an RMA, that's their problem ultimately.