Kimmy - 1DX mark II 4K video

[Kinok]

This HD HFR mode is supposed to offer Canon users the equivalent of Sony A7RII/A7SII slow motion. It's not a replacement for 150fps on a Sony FS7 or an FS700 with the Odyssey!

On that level, I think it looks just fine and perhaps even a little better than the A7SII, which has a tendency for bad moiré at 100fps and above. Just look at these screen grabs from the 1DX II Forest video from above:



The detail is truly magnificent here. I think it is obvious from these screen grabs that this is legitimate 1080P and not 720P. As for line skipping or pixel binning, it is not like what it was on the 5DII. There is actually some downsampling going on here and it is far more advanced than the pixel binning on previous generations.

 

[AndreeOnline]

I'm not going to go on record saying anything about the underlying quality by simply judging online clips, but for me… this highspeed mode WOULD be a reason that tips the scales in the 1Dx mkII's favor.

I'm pretty much only shooting in the 4k mode of the 1Dc. I'm not going to use the S35 mode to save data and I only used the 1080p60 for a few tests.

I would love to play with the 100fps mode on the 1Dx mkII. Especially with the kids and for informal stuff (which I do a lot of). I'm not looking at it in the context of a high end mode, but these last few videos would be fine for many things I do.

Many times we ourselves (and by extension this community) are our hardest critics. People who don't actively shoot themselves are VERY forgiving.... (some times including commercial clients =)

 

[LeoGrey]

This HD HFR mode is supposed to offer Canon users the equivalent of Sony A7RII/A7SII slow motion. It's not a replacement for 150fps on a Sony FS7 or an FS700 with the Odyssey!

Interesting you say that because the fs7 is another camera that looks like junk above 60fps(albeit not "as bad" as the 1dxii).. The only exception in Sony's lineup is the f5/55(with 4k/2k olpf's) or the fs700/O7Q combo (in 4k burst mode). Everything else has some kind of pseudo over crank hack that attempts to compete with RED(and now Black magic).

A case can be made for the a7sii given its size/price/iso/recording media makes it a hell of a value.

The detail is truly magnificent here. I think it is obvious from these screen grabs that this is legitimate 1080P and not 720P. As for line skipping or pixel binning, it is not like what it was on the 5DII. There is actually some downsampling going on here and it is far more advanced than the pixel binning on previous generations.

There is almost zero detail in the forest footage(or any of the other 1DXII/120fps clips) so I'm not sure what you are referring too. Someone at a rental house should put together a shootout and point each of these cameras at an ISO 12233 / QA-77 chart. Time to make these manufacturers be a little more honest with their specs & feature sheets.

 

[cpreston]

That dancer/model in the forest video looks pretty bad to me. Of course, it does appear to be sponsored by Canon and their sponsored videos always make me cringe. Oversharpened. Increased contrast to the point where banding is very noticeable. I think they force everyone to shoot in standard and then add even more saturation and extra contrast in post. Also, it looks like they might have been using a 50 1.2 wide open and that lens is not sharp. At all. Anyway, based on that test, I'm thinking the HFR might be a mess. I would just like to see a standard chart test with some panning so I can see what is actually going on with the camera.

 

[NorBro]

The 120fps is coming out of the camera already destroyed, so I don't think it matters what you will shoot at this point.

For those precious family and friend moments it's fine and fun, but for any professional work it's just personally unacceptable to me no matter how forgiving the target audience may be.

 

[Kinok]

There is almost zero detail in the forest footage(or any of the other 1DXII/120fps clips) so I'm not sure what you are referring too. Someone at a rental house should put together a shootout and point each of these cameras at an ISO 12233 / QA-77 chart. Time to make these manufacturers be a little more honest with their specs & feature sheets.

Perhaps the shallow depth of field makes the overall image appear blurry, but look at the stitches and texture on the woman's shirt just to right of the clipped highlight on her shoulder. This is an area that is in sharp focus in the screenshot. There is a lot of detail here for HD 120fps footage, again relative to what Sony is doing in the A7 cameras. It's no replacement for 4K HFR like the Scarlet-W 95-120fps 4K footage I linked above, but for a DSLR that is operating at its absolute limit for image processing and heat generation it's perfectly fine.

As for the FS7, your opinion may be that it is "junk" above 60fps, but I've seen some good quality HFR HD shot with that camera. It's certainly much better than the Canon or Sony DSLRs:

Personally, I don't use slow motion much at all, and, if I had to, I would use a proper slow-motion camera (not a DSLR). The only slow-motion mode I would use on the 1DX II is 4K 60fps. Yet it's nice to know that 120fps 1080 HD could work on the 1DX II if you are in a pinch and absolutely need a particular shot. Besides, I thought it worked pretty well in The Beauty of Boxing video I linked last week, as long as you are careful to avoid aliasing and moiré (for example, see the boxer's shorts at 00:19):

 

[cpreston]

The thing I like about the 1DC in 4K is that it doesn't naturally look oversharpened and the clog has really nice highlight rolloff. That 1DX II video The Beauty of Boxing has none of that quality. I realize that the boxing video was shot that way on purpose, but I don't think it shows the qualities that most people liked about the Canon 1DC.

 

[NorBro]

The boxing video says it was all shot at 4K/60P and 4K/24P. No HD/120fps...and none of the shots appear to have that low-quality look.

 

[Samuel H]

The shot with the two cannons on the sides, and the shot with the closeup of her shoulder, are telling me that dynamic range is far from stellar. Yes, the cannons are black, but it's an open area and they shouldn't go nearly that dark. Put your subject in the shadow and you'll be having to choose whether your subject goes unrecoverably dark or the sky goes unrecoverably clipped. And that shoulder shot seems to be in a wide shadow area with plenty of very diffused light, the fact that there's a highlight so close to clipping, with oversaturated halos and all, is just wrong (yes, I've read they used standard profile, not trying to maximize DR, but come on, why post that shot).

 

[Kinok]

The thing I like about the 1DC in 4K is that it doesn't naturally look oversharpened and the clog has really nice highlight rolloff. That 1DX II video The Beauty of Boxing has none of that quality. I realize that the boxing video was shot that way on purpose, but I don't think it shows the qualities that most people liked about the Canon 1DC.

Both cameras resolve an amazing level of detail in 4K 24/25fps, but sharpening is different and betrays the absence of detail. Nevertheless, I agree with your assessment that this camera ultimately cannot match the filmic qualities of the 1DC (see our C-Log discussion and examples on the other thread). In short, I have concluded that I will either buy the 1DC or wait for the 1DC II.

 

[Kinok]

The shot with the two cannons on the sides, and the shot with the closeup of her shoulder, are telling me that dynamic range is far from stellar. Yes, the cannons are black, but it's an open area and they shouldn't go nearly that dark. Put your subject in the shadow and you'll be having to choose whether your subject goes unrecoverably dark or the sky goes unrecoverably clipped. And that shoulder shot seems to be in a wide shadow area with plenty of very diffused light, the fact that there's a highlight so close to clipping, with oversaturated halos and all, is just wrong (yes, I've read they used standard profile, not trying to maximize DR, but come on, why post that shot).

The 1DX II will suffer the same 3-4 stop DR penalty relative to the 1DC in C-Log that the 1DC did in Neutral, no matter what you do with HTP or any other picture profile settings. That penalty seems to be somewhat enhanced in this 120fps footage. But the cannon battery video does show a more creamy and filmic look than the forest clips, which display the worst kind of "Standard" profile that you could imagine.

 

[Kinok]

The boxing video says it was all shot at 4K/60P and 4K/24P. No HD/120fps...and none of the shots appear to have that low-quality look.

Can this go on the record? I'm glad that you finally gave your endorsement to the 1DX II's 120fps footage without even knowing it!

The video description was incomplete. The filmmaker himself states that he used 120fps (01:40) in the BTS video:

"We shot 4K video at 60fps and also at 24fps and also at 120fps in HD."

I'm pretty sure 120fps was only used in a few shots, but it is there and demonstrates that it could be utilized without being noticed by videographers and other industry professionals who are pixel peeping on their 4K monitors. Now imagine what your audience would see, if it wasn't a problem for you at all.

 

[NorBro]

Yea, I don't believe it. Just because he says it doesn't mean it was used in the final edit. It's a promo; people say things.

The description of the video doesn't mention it and I would think it would be added if the time was taken to add the other spec/details.

Regardless, I will never endorse the 120fps of the 1DX Mark II because it's brutal.

 

[Kinok]

Yea, I don't believe it. Just because he says it doesn't mean it was used in the final edit. It's a promo; people say things.

The description of the video doesn't mention it and I would think it would be added if the time was taken to add the other spec/details.

Regardless, I will never endorse the 120fps of the 1DX Mark II because it's brutal.

"Brutal" or not, the filmmaker has already confirmed that he used 120fps in The Beauty of Boxing. They are even showing you the 120fps HD jump rope footage as Cuarezma is talking about it so I don't know what else could be more obvious. You do notice that it's slower than 60fps, right? The video was primarily shot in 24 and 60, but it definitely has some higher frame rate HD in there.

 

[NorBro]

"Brutal" or not, the filmmaker has already confirmed that he used 120fps in The Beauty of Boxing. They are even showing you the 120fps HD jump rope footage as Cuarezma is talking about it so I don't know what else could be more obvious. You do notice that it's slower than 60fps, right? The video was primarily shot in 24 and 60, but it definitely has some higher frame rate HD in there.

Cool. Well, that shot that they are showing of the jump rope as they are talking about 120fps in the behind-the-scenes didn't even make the final cut in the video. Was that obvious to you?

Personally, I am using my brain and experience...and I don't see 120fps in the final cut of the video. I can be wrong. And have before. And if it's there then it blends nicely.

Hollywood uses all kinds of tools in their blockbuster films and it works, especially in fast-paced edits. But I would never use the 120fps from the Canon 1DX Mark II for more than 1 or 2 seconds MAX in an edit.

 

[NorBro]

I also think it's crazy we are debating HFR from a DSLR made for photography first.

If I buy this camera, it will be mainly because of the small 4K package for my traveling, auto-focus capabilities and 4K/60p...in that order.

 

[Kinok]

The jump rope outtake footage is just an example of 120fps as Cuarezma as discussing that feature. The jump rope in the film itself is only 60fps, to my eye. But there is a shot at 00:18 that is noticeably different from all the other footage in that it is both in slow motion and of a lower resolution with some moiré (on his green shorts) that I have yet to see on this camera in 4K mode:



Anyway, you are right that we are wasting too much time debating this silly little 120fps feature, which neither one of us is planning to use. I'm not even going to buy the 1DX II after all the examples of Log vs. Neutral HTP that I have seen, and which we have been discussing on the other thread.

The 1DX II just has too much contrast and not enough DR relative to the 1DC in C-Log. I will either buy the latter on discount or wait for the 1DC II, as you suggested earlier.

 

[NorBro]

The good news is that if we both decide to get one (even though you're leaning towards the 1DC), I think they should be pretty easy to sell if a 1DC II or 5D Mark IV arrive.

 

[cookinghusband]

My guess, for what it's worth, is that the next camera cinema camera announced will be the C500II with 4K internal recording on an 8K sensor and 8K RAW. Canon may also introduce a C200 or 100III meant to compete with the FS5/FS7 with 4K internal at low bit rates as Kinok imagines. The C300II is not a direct competitor to the FS7 since it has timecode, genlock, and RAW output already built in. The FS7 requires an attachment which helps to mitigate the price difference. The Canon cameras still fetch a premium compared to Sony, though.

JUSt got my 1DX2 today,
except for the DPAF 1DC seems to be a much better camera for movie filming.
Also there seems to be lots of r minor hardware/spec tweeks( dual Cfast card, continious recording, 4K raw HDMI) for Canon to implement easily to make me pay again for the 1DC2
I think we may see a 6K 1DC at $12K and the 8K C500, when the price of the media to support the data transfer rate become more reasonable

A few quick shot I did on the streets a night to test the AF immediately after I came down from the shop, seems like I do not need a parafocal zoom any more, I can probably fired my focus puller.

 

[hempo22]

I would really like to know what lenses people are using with the AF and which works the best Primes, zooms, Canon or third party... I got a lot of investing to do with lenses going to an FF DSLR.