Kimmy - 1DX mark II 4K video
- Thread starter Ezella
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ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
I could live without it if they at least implement a solid 60P 1080 option that resolves well and has LOG.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I agree.
There were some great examples of DR in that video, such as in the mechanic's shop which I included as screenshots above.
As for sunlight, I’m really not worried about the daylight performance after having seen the Kimmy video posted above as well as the Bones of Contention:
https://vimeo.com/157399070
There is plenty of good DR performance there and the overall effect is very filmic in high-contrast situations. More importantly, the highlight roll off is excellent as well.
And here is another daylight example (albeit not midday) that looks like it was shot with the 1DX II:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuQkbH_-5B4
Now there is no confirmation of the camera used, but the consistency between the rig shots (which are definitely using the 1DX II) and the main footage suggests it’s all one camera. If it does turn out to be shot entirely on the 1DX II, it is yet another astounding performance and demonstrates the grading potential for the footage.
As a hybrid photo/video documentary machine, this could easily be the camera of the year . . .
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NorBro
Major Contributor
The Kimmy video has some pretty harsh clipping in certain spots if you check the original version he posted in the description.
And the video above about the photographer was shot with the C300 Mark II as well.
Regardless, I'm not concerned with the dynamic range too much as the 1DX Mark II has other features I need, and the portability is a big one for me as well.
And the video above about the photographer was shot with the C300 Mark II as well.
Regardless, I'm not concerned with the dynamic range too much as the 1DX Mark II has other features I need, and the portability is a big one for me as well.
The ungraded version of the Kimmy video I downloaded definitely has a little bit of clipping, but it was minor. These screens were from the graded version, which I thought was better.
Are you sure it was the C300 II in the Fritz van Eldik video? Did you read this somewhere? It wouldn't surprise me as their product videos often feature the C100 and C300 cameras. But I would imagine a slightly better performance from the C300 II. So that is disappointing on both fronts!
NorBro
Major Contributor
I cannot find the video I watched that showed some of it being filmed with the C300 Mark II, so please disregard that for now. Will certainly provide a link as soon as I find it. But yea, Canon definitely has shoot a lot of their promos with the C300 and C500 in the past. I also assume the 1DX Mark II was used in that video as well.
NorBro
Major Contributor
That's a lovely clip there. I especially like the use of mismatched sound and image at 00:48 when the waves crash against the seawall. It's a great use of the camera's slow motion capabilities.
I do feel that the image is a little too punchy on these 1DX II videos and that it has too much contrast. The more I go back and compare it with 1DC footage, the more it seems like the 1DX II is lacking in DR next to that camera. For example, the 1DX II has trouble with the sky in the Havana footage, whereas the 1DC would do a much better job of retaining those highlights. Compare the above footage with Clean Bandit's Extraordinary shot entirely with the 1DC (and in keeping with the Cuban theme):
The 1DC still has that special cinema sauce that costs $2000 more! Here is a blatant example of the difference between 8 bit linear and 8 bit Canon-Log on the 1DC:
And here is Hurlbut's DR test on the 1DC showing a 3-stop difference in DR between Neutral (9 stops) and Canon-Log (12 stops):
Without Log, the 1DX II is hobbled for cinema use. My suspicion is that Canon is reserving C-Log for a 1DC II that will release about a year or two after the 1DX II, just like last time. That camera will have the same exact specs as the 1DX II but with C-Log. They are not going to give you everything you need all at once in one camera. Then you would have no need to buy the next one . . .
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There is very little raw footage out there to make an accurate assessment on this. Also keep in mind that no one has had this camera for more than a couple hours/day. Hardly enough time to become familiar with the camera and how it performs.
With 500mbs/800mbs data rates and a neutral picture profile this camera can be intercut with ANYTHING. Add onto that the colossus-like build quality and Canon's DPAF technology(with a touch screen mind you). This thing is every filmmakers wet dream!
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There may be some form of 4K in the upcoming 5D IV, or whatever its replacement is called, but it will have nowhere near the processing power of the 1D bodies. It will likely be very limited in terms of codec (no All-I/intraframe) and it will not have Motion JPEG. It will be similar to what you get other DSLRs in that price range (interframe 8 bit 4:2:0).
The main problem for the 5D is that its body size does not allow for the heat management that the 1D series facilitates with its massive lower grip. For example, in this video, the Canon rep talks about a “heat pipe” that removes heat from the 1DX II sensor and allows it to record at least 30 minutes in 4K up to the European limit (@ 6:00):
There is another video where a Canon rep claims that implementing the heat sink into the 1DC body was essential to utilizing such a system of heat dissipation for high quality 4K recording (@ 8:35):
He also mentions how the same heatsinks are now used in the 1DX II making the camera heavier than its direct predecessor.
A few other interesting points from the interview:
• the Canon rep says that the 1DX II is the replacement for both the 1DX I and the 1DC. This leaves open the question as to whether the 1DX II will get Canon Log in a future upgrade. Perhaps this will occur when the 1DC is phased out.
• @ 10:50 there is a discussion of dynamic range where he mentions how it is better to underexpose the camera and bring up the blacks (which he claims have very little noise)
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I agree with you that it's too early to make any conclusions about the DR performance and contrast level as the camera has yet to be released and put through its paces. I was merely commenting on the footage I had seen thus far. The data rate is indeed staggering and much higher than the 10 bit 4:2:2 in the FS7, which uses the more efficient XAVC-I compression. I'm not sure if 10 bit would have been possible in this camera without implementing fans or without disrupting Canon's market segmentation for the EOS cinema line, but I do wish that they had included C-Log. At the end of the day, neutral profiles are no replacement for a proper log implementation.
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Bassman2003
Veteran
Yes. At the end of the day, do they want to give you the good stuff or not? The cameras makers know what is best. Huge data rates can not replace bit rates. Can you imagine shooting 8bit RAW still files? Sure the data rate would be as large as it could be but so much would be left off the table compared to a 14bit RAW file.
No doubt this camera will be a great tool. Especially for combo still/video shooters. As a video only purchase, the price puts it next to an Fs5 which has proper audio etc... which makes it a tougher sell. Worth keeping an eye on though!
No doubt this camera will be a great tool. Especially for combo still/video shooters. As a video only purchase, the price puts it next to an Fs5 which has proper audio etc... which makes it a tougher sell. Worth keeping an eye on though!
Very interesting.. Can't say I have ever seen him before but this is the first I have heard that the 1dx ii is a direct replacement. If that is true then I would imagine log and other features would be imminent.
Speak for yourself. I'll take Canon's 8bit/500mbs/IPB over Sony's 10 bit long gop any day of the week. $6k for a weatherproof 4k camera with absurd battery life, astronomical iso performance and the worlds most advanced auto focusing system. If you can't tell, I'm beyond excited to receive mine!
Let's not forget this isn't just another dslr. You really have to actually hold one of these pro bodies in your hand to gain an appreciation for just how solid, reliable and easy they are to use. Aside from Canon color, it also has Canon's UI which is a dream compared to anything Sony currently has. Every time I pick up my a7rii I am in love with the images I get, but BEYOND frustrated with how many I miss fidgeting with the camera and its quirks.
For what its worth, I don't think sony is "playing nice" by not releasing a pro body. I think they are hitting roadblocks and realizing how hard it actually is too bring a competitive product to market at this level. The pro market is dominated by Canon/Nikon and to lure them away your going to need a class leading product. Unlike the consumer/prosumer markets where you can get away with unrefined products so long as they have intriguing feature sets at a decent price point. I love my mirrorless cameras but for professional imaging they are still outclassed by traditional dslr's.
Another interesting feature that seems to have made the leap from the 1DC is that if you set the 1dx ii to 4k mode the hdmi outputs a beautifully downsampled HD version.
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The Canon rep in the video, Roger Machin, who makes the claim about the 1DX II replacing the 1DC is a Professional Product Manager at Canon South Africa. That's probably why you and I have never seen him before (I'm assuming you are not from SA). I've heard the same claim from other Canon retailers and reps, but Canon itself is sending out mixed messages on the 1DC. The latter is being offered as a separate product line to the 1DX II at the recent trade shows, but it has also been listed as "out of stock" for several months on Canon's own website here in the U.S. and the situation does not seem to be changing to "in stock":
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/cinema-eos/eos-1d-c
Of course, many retailers still have these in stock but they are probably the last of the 1DC production line. Either the 1DC is going to be phased out for the 1DX II with Log added in firmware, or Canon is preparing the ground for the 1DC II, which will retain C-Log and the 1DC's other cinema features as exclusives. The other option is that the 1DC will be discontinued and no C-Log will be added to the 1DX II. So, in that case, C-Log would be reserved for the Cinema EOS line C100 and C300 cameras in this segment. Besides, I'm not sure that C-Log is something you just add in a firmware update. The difference between linear and log processing and recording is something you would assume is built into the camera from its very inception on the drawing board as it makes a massive difference in dynamic range.
You would also assume that in an Olympics year they don't need those video features to sell thousands of the 1DX II cameras. Every sports photographer who can afford it will buy one without a care in the world about the lack of C-Log.
My hope is that the 1DX II will get C-Log or that the 1DC will be discounted below its current $8K price. At that point, I would jump on either one like a cat on its prey.
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/cinema-eos/eos-1d-c
Of course, many retailers still have these in stock but they are probably the last of the 1DC production line. Either the 1DC is going to be phased out for the 1DX II with Log added in firmware, or Canon is preparing the ground for the 1DC II, which will retain C-Log and the 1DC's other cinema features as exclusives. The other option is that the 1DC will be discontinued and no C-Log will be added to the 1DX II. So, in that case, C-Log would be reserved for the Cinema EOS line C100 and C300 cameras in this segment. Besides, I'm not sure that C-Log is something you just add in a firmware update. The difference between linear and log processing and recording is something you would assume is built into the camera from its very inception on the drawing board as it makes a massive difference in dynamic range.
You would also assume that in an Olympics year they don't need those video features to sell thousands of the 1DX II cameras. Every sports photographer who can afford it will buy one without a care in the world about the lack of C-Log.
My hope is that the 1DX II will get C-Log or that the 1DC will be discounted below its current $8K price. At that point, I would jump on either one like a cat on its prey.
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NorBro
Major Contributor
During NAB, a guy on BMCuser asked what people wanted to see/hear (like someone did here). I kindly asked him to stop by the Canon booth and ask about the 1DX Mark II and LOG/firmware updates, and he later replied with:
"From the Canon guys: 1Dx ii is low on the firmware list. New features are less likely than error fixes."
The 1DC was also $7000 a few months ago at B&H. A flash discount...they call it "Instant Savings". Did not last long, which I thought was strange.
"From the Canon guys: 1Dx ii is low on the firmware list. New features are less likely than error fixes."
The 1DC was also $7000 a few months ago at B&H. A flash discount...they call it "Instant Savings". Did not last long, which I thought was strange.
Just as I suspected from Canon. So that means no C-Log for the 1DX II for the foreseeable future or perhaps ever. Without C-Log, I would never buy the 1DX II for video, especially when the 1DC is still around and offers far superior DR for just $2000 more. Besides, if I need HFR video, I would just add a cheap Sony or Panasonic camera that does 500 fps or something! I can live without the autofocus improvements as the 1DC has some important cinema upgrades to audio and built-in video lens correction that set it apart from the 1DX line:
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...es/cameras-and-lenses/cinema-eos-firmware/1dc
With these types of features and an exclusive hold on C-Log, Canon has ensured that the 1DC line remains their one true DSLR cinema machine. Let's hope they eventually come out with a 1DC II as well.
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This is no surprise given the fact that the olympics are in less than 90 days. I imagine their priority would be bug fixes and updates catered toward the photojournalists and sports photographers. Roger Machin confidently stated that the mk ii is a replacement for both the 1dx/1dc, whether or not it gets a log profile and other tools is a question I would love to see answered.
The 1DX II simply refuses to go down without a fight! Here is some more stunning footage:
Yes, it has more contrast than the 1DC in C-Log, and not as much dynamic range, but it has its own gorgeous look reminiscent of Kodak film stock from years past. In the right hands, the camera is proving to be a magnificent tool. The low noise level in particular is unbelievable and the resolving power is off the charts for a 4K sensor, perhaps owing to the larger than usual photosites (6.65 µm) and the resulting massive sensor area of 26.9 X 14.2 mm for 4K DCI (4096 X 2160). Such a massive array simply improves the optical performance of any lens and its ability to resolve fine detail. That, combined with the All-I codec and 4:2:2 subsampling, is what makes these 1D cameras so special despite what we would assume with their 8-bit limitations.
Yes, it has more contrast than the 1DC in C-Log, and not as much dynamic range, but it has its own gorgeous look reminiscent of Kodak film stock from years past. In the right hands, the camera is proving to be a magnificent tool. The low noise level in particular is unbelievable and the resolving power is off the charts for a 4K sensor, perhaps owing to the larger than usual photosites (6.65 µm) and the resulting massive sensor area of 26.9 X 14.2 mm for 4K DCI (4096 X 2160). Such a massive array simply improves the optical performance of any lens and its ability to resolve fine detail. That, combined with the All-I codec and 4:2:2 subsampling, is what makes these 1D cameras so special despite what we would assume with their 8-bit limitations.
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