Key to making your film sound like it had a budget

[Ted Spencer]

I get a little spoiled. I saw the Dark Knight at an Academy screening (no teenagers texting!) in an IMAX theatre, WooHoo, what a ride.

It was playing a few blocks from here in IMAX, but the night we went I couldn't get tickets. So we saw it 'regular'. I gotta say though, that the way the Blu-ray looks and sounds at home on my new Pioneer Elite 50" plasma (brag, brag) and fancy-ass Denon receiver (ditto) gives the theatre a run for the money. Man that Pioneer is somethin' (get 'em while they're hot - they're getting out of the plasma business).

 

[Noiz2]

"You should be scared, VERY scared..."

Sorry couldn't help my self.

Production and post are two different animals and are never in my experienced budgeted together. Union scale for production is I believe $650/ day plus equipment rental. Most doc.s and low budget films (DVX User low budget not Hollywood low budget) seem to pay in the range of $150 - $500/ day and that often includes all equipment.
Now that may seem like a lot but consider the DP that your paying and is bringing his camera. He's bringing $3K - $6K of equipment and his/her skill. A good location sound package is probably coming in at a min of ~$20K and a lot more if you are using a bunch of wireless and monitoring. A full blown package is probably more like $50K - $100K and they are bringing their skills. On most films the DP gets payed better and gets MUCH better credit position. So that's why you can get some pretty nasty emails when you post your credit and copy and fame crew ads.
I would bet that 90% of the time you could get your sound mixer for the same as your paying the DP and say a good tail credit position.

Post is largely the same deal. Your picture editor is generally getting paid and getting a fair amount of time to get it right. They are working on a $2k - $3k computer with a $1,500 NLE and MAYBE they also have a deck and a dedicated video card and broadcast monitor, but not often. So lets say you got someone serious and they have $6k in equipment and their skill. They will also almost always get a head credit.
Now in a typical scenario, when your just about finished with the edit and you realize you REALLY need more sound work than you can get out of FCP and the picture editor you start looking for a sound person. You want them to have ProTools and be able to open your OMF and you really want them on TDM and not the low life Le, and of course they need to have a big sound library, and some way to get into a studio to do those ADR lines. And you want them to some good toys. So your looking at them having somewhere between $20K - $60K of stuff (more if you want surround) and some good connections. It's only two weeks till the drop dead date for Sundance because the picture edit took longer than you planned and you absolutely HAVE to submit. So you want the sound done in s week to 10 days. But you didn't budget for post, or you did and spent it all on the extended picture edit, so you want the sound guy to do it for credit...

As a rule to do a good job on post you need to figure 10-15 man hours per screen minute. A union editor makes something like $2k/ week (add 35% for union extras). The rate varies so it's hard to say exactly but that is about it. In a professional situation you would also be paying a room rate for equipment that could double that rate. And in the big time the BIG credit question in the sound department is "did we beat the honey wagon driver?". Take a look some time and you will see how rare it is that post sound comes BEFORE the guy that drove the honey truck. For those that don't know the "honey truck" is the thing that sucks out the porta-poty's on location.

SO to answer your question on a low budget short. I would say the same as production. You could get by 90% of the time paying and crediting exactly the same as your editor. If you need it for free you have a MUCH better chance if I know that the editor also didn't get payed and I'm getting head credit right behind him/her. But you better be honest about it. You tell me the editor isn't getting paid and I find out he is, You are not going to get that deal again and word will go out.
Credits as a rule don't mean anything for sound unless it's a major film. But a head credit at least will be seen.

I've done shorts for as low as free. But not often. Student shorts I will usually charge ~~$1,500 - $3,000. Some have some budget some don't. Student features I try to get at least $10,000. If I'm doing a feature on my own that's months of work where I can't really do a lot of other stuff to make the nut. Part of the reason I will/ can go very low on some of these projects is time related. If I like the project AND they are willing to get bumped for paying work I can be very generous. Sometimes work is slow and they get it all quickly and other times they get bumped for weeks or months. I also don't work repeat projects at those rates. If I give you a bargain on your student short and you come back with a project that has a budget we are going do a much more reasonable rate. And sometimes student shorts only have X days so they get what I can do in that amount of time and they are paying more of a day rate than a project bid.

As a comparison a FX post only (mix, VO and Music being done elsewhere) runs around $10k for a :30 spot.

And one piece of advice when posting to CL or whatever. Don't say what needs doing. You can mention what has been done but ad's that say "only needs some cleanup and sweetening" scare off anyone you want to have touch your film. I think producers think they are saying "you won't have to work too hard - for little or no money", but what a sound person hears is "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I don't think sound is very hard so I don't feel bad about not paying you". Saying yes to these ads will almost always give you weeks of angst when the film that needs a LOT of work comes in and the producer can't understand why any of this is taking any time. Also if I working cheap it better be on something I like and I better be having FUN and it better be something that has set HIGH standards and I can stick in a reel. "A little cleanup" sounds like 9to5 drudge work on a project with low standards, why would I do that for cheap? Tell me that you open to going crazy with sound and now I'm getting excited.

Hope this was useful and not just rant.

AND I was using the generic YOU. None of this was meant to criticize the poster in any way. I just reread it and realized it could have been taken that way and I don't want to go back and rewrite everything.

Cheers
SK

This thread officially has me scared of audio. Sorry to go off topic, but I have a question.

If I want this "high budget" sound, how much money is reasonable to spend on a short film when hiring every audio person needed on set and everybody on the post-production team? Let's say a dialogue-driven, 3-day shoot, with mainly interior locations.

I've seen some location sound mixers locally go for 500/day and boom ops for 300/day. Is anybody else needed on set? What about post? I know that if I'm editing the film, I won't be able to do the proper post production, so who do I hire and how much does this cost?

 

[MontrealAudio]

"You should be scared, VERY scared..."
It's only two weeks till the drop dead date for Sundance because the picture edit took longer than you planned and you absolutely HAVE to submit.

HA! I've heard that too many times. Nice read cheers Noiz2

 

[Ted Spencer]

ad's that say "only needs some cleanup and sweetening" scare off anyone you want to have touch your film. I think producers think they are saying "you won't have to work too hard - for little or no money", but what a sound person hears is "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I don't think sound is very hard so I don't feel bad about not paying you"

This is why in my music studio work I have one, fixed rate per hour for everything. No discounts, no "spec deals", not even day rates (because those "days" have a nasty habit of growing out of contriol). If the rate's too high for someone, well...they can shop elsewhere.

I've tried to set my rates where most people find them to be a very reasonable value. That also means that a minority will think they're too high and another minority will find them surprisingly low. Pretty much proves the case I think...

Oh, and truthfully, I do occasionally charge higher rates for very well-funded clients, none of whom ever complain about it...

 

[Gohanto]

It was playing a few blocks from here in IMAX, but the night we went I couldn't get tickets. So we saw it 'regular'. I gotta say though, that the way the Blu-ray looks and sounds at home on my new Pioneer Elite 50" plasma (brag, brag) and fancy-ass Denon receiver (ditto) gives the theatre a run for the money. Man that Pioneer is somethin' (get 'em while they're hot - they're getting out of the plasma business).

For screen size I normally prefer the theater because even great home TVs (and I do love Pioneer's plasmas) just can't match the experience for me, but with home audio now having uncompressed tracks and better receivers, they're topping a lot of theaters' sound systems.

Very few around me ever sound all that great. Hopefully someday I'll live in an area where they've got Meyer's cinema line installed in a nearby theater.

 

[10s]

I think you solved the question, call in the Honey Bucket boys and let em suck the sh*t out of your production. What's left is that big budget production sound! So that's how the post audio guys do it so quickly, hmmmm... makes sense.

LOL, You have to appreciate the craziness of it all to maintain some degree of sanity.

Now that i think of it, I like the idea of calling the post audio team the Honey Bucket Boys .... somehow it's fitting

It reminds me of the 8 or so LA studio musicians that use to do the actual playing/recording on the hit records for a whole bunch of stars:, The Byrds, Simon & Garfunkel, Beach boys, etc... they called themselves The Wrecking Crew.

"...the big time the BIG credit question in the sound department is "did we beat the honey wagon driver?". Take a look some time and you will see how rare it is that post sound comes BEFORE the guy that drove the honey truck. For those that don't know the "honey truck" is the thing that sucks out the porta-poty's on location.

SK

 

[Noiz2]

That is kind of catchy. Maybe budgets could reflect this also, above the line, below the line and below the bucket.

 

[Ted Spencer]

For screen size I normally prefer the theater because even great home TVs (and I do love Pioneer's plasmas) just can't match the experience for me

No question that the scale of a theater screen is unmatchable, but for resolution/sharpness, this Pioneer puts any big screen I've ever seen to shame. Color palette too. Certain 36 bit titles have colors on this sucker that are simply mindblowing. Like "neon" (aka day-glo) colors that look absolutely...neon. Movies like "The Dark Knight" or for that matter "Kung Fu Panda" (of all things) look simply pants-pissing good.

I've got a nice HD projector too, a Panasonic PT-AX100U (720p), which I can view at about 12' diagonal from 15' away, so it's BIG. It looks fabulous, but like a theater screen, considerably softer than the plasma. I've been using it a little bit less since I got the Pioneer (I had a Panasonic 42" EDTV before).

The Denon receiver (a 2809ci) has the "Audyssey" room eq system, which works surprisingly well. I've heard many an EQ'd recording studio control room that turned out far worse.

For speakers, I've got what I've been using for many years: FLR are a pair of JBL L-100s I bought new in 1977 (! - showing my age here) that still sound fantastic believe it or not, and have no need of help from a sub (so I don't have one). Center is a Design Acoustics PS-CV I bought for $75 about 20 years ago, and the SLRs are Radio Shack Minimus 7s! So my speaker system is a freakin' museum exhibit! It always sounded pretty good, but the Audyssey tuning (each channel has a 9 band eq on it) has made a huge difference, particularly in the center and surrounds. A lot more top and bottom have arrived since it got through with 'em.

I just put a surround system in my studio control room, and I won't bore you with all the specs on that aside from the fact that the FLRs are equalized Yamaha NS-10's, and I'm using a Genelec 1092 sub. I'm still in the process of listening tests and fine tuning on that one. The sub also goes with a pair of Genelec 1030a's for stereo-only mixes (like music CDs) and cross reference.

Please pardon me if all this sounds like I'm just bragging about my gear : (

 

[MontrealAudio]

Oh you speaker slut! hehe , very cool setup none the less an point well made.

On the note of projection. What kind of hardware (aside from projector) would I need to output video playback in PT LE to a projector? (I only ask because you have one, but this may be a DUC question)

 

[Ted Spencer]

If you have PTLE on a desktop computer you could add a Blackmagic HD Extreme PCI card (about $800) which will output HD component video or HDMI of PT's movie window, selectable as a checkbox item in PT's Options menu (and I think *only* this card will work). Otherwise, and also for a laptop, it's SD/composite or S-Video only, through firewire and something like a Canopus ADVC100 or firewire camcorder (I've used a Sony DCR TRV950 successfully for a long time).

I also have a Matrox MXO (~$1K), which will put out second monitor desktop to component (but not HDMI) on any dual DVI mac, but it doesn't appear to be accurate enough color-wise for any kind of critical viewing in that mode. It's fabulous for FCP though, so if you've got that too, then it's highly recommended. It's completely external (and small, and portable) so it will work fine with a laptop too. And it turns a DVI monitor into a broadcast quality color-correction monitor, which its primary purpose.

 

[10s]

Why NS-10Ms for FLR surround? I would think the Genelecs would be much much nicer and then use the NS-10Ms as a periodic mid range check system . I couldn't stand sitting for hours listening to NS-10Ms, they wear my ears out too quickly.

 

[Noiz2]

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[Ted Spencer]

Why NS-10Ms for FLR surround? I would think the Genelecs would be much much nicer and then use the NS-10Ms as a periodic mid range check system . I couldn't stand sitting for hours listening to NS-10Ms, they wear my ears out too quickly.

I knew that might raise an eyebrow or two, and that *is* how I use the Gennie/Yammie combo for recording and music-only mixing. But for surround mixing, at least for now, as I work with the system in listening and tuning sessions, I think the NS10s as FLR are going to work out well. Having said that though, one of the original reasons for it is, frankly, convenience - the Genelecs are connected directly to my mixing console on one of the monitor outputs (since they have built-in amplification and EQ), and the Yamahas are connected to a Sony 5.1 receiver (since they don't). Otherwise:

-Having the Genelec 1030a's as default stereo-only will allow a wide range mix-check of any individual mix elements on them (such as center or SLR) for frequency content as well as a stereo sum of all six channels to make sure they sound good when combined. The PT mix template I created internally routes all 5.1 channels to their respective multichannel outs, and via (mutable) auxes to the stereo outs simultaneously, making it easy to choose what combination(s) to listen to. If it were the other way (NS10s as stereo-only), that step would be much less useful particularly where frequency content-check is concerned since the Yamahas don't accurately represent the full spectrum.

-For the above reason, the Genelec FLR's can stick with their default hookup/internal EQ settings at all times.

-The Genelec subwoofer is easily rerouted to the 5.1 amp's sub pre out, filling in most of the missing bottom end on the NS10s.

-All the channels need 5.1-specific room EQ, which is readily available (and good sounding) on the receiver, so the NS10s get their own curve, adding in the rest of the missing low end as well as an HF shelving cut to deal with the "X-Curve" factor that Noiz2 was kind enough to enlighten me about. I might tweak the Yamaha's mids as well, since the receiver has a parametric midrange along with shelving LF and HF.

-Only via the receiver can all channels of the 5.1 mix be controlled with a single gain control.

-Only the receiver can decode 5.1 sources like DD and DTS DVDs and Blu-rays, so it is the source of benchmark listening tests.

-It will also, as I said at the beginning, be much easier to deal with setup-wise. The PT 5.1 mix template (+stereo to the Genelecs) via the Digi 192 will interface quite easily with the receiver's multichannel analog ins. One wrinkle is that all the channels' room EQ has to be duplicated on PT's output busses since the receiver has no EQ available in that input mode. The stereo/combination channels will as well, since the X-Curve still applies. Scary business, all of that, but preliminary testing suggests it will be fine, since the curves are actually quite simple, and a thorough vetting/matching of it will take place before any actual mixing is done.

-For stereo-only mixing with either the 1030a/1092 (sub) combo or NS10s without the X-Curve compensation (for CD/music projects) the switchover is very simple: the sub gets repatched through the 1030as, and the receiver gets switched to its stereo input for the NS10s, with its own separate EQ preset selected.

Whew...how's that for a complicated answer to a simple question? It's probably *way* too much information : )

 

[10s]

Thanks! & a good example of why engineers are needed and why they often are paid well; they sort this stuff out the nth degree and keep tweaking better performance out of the gear. I find the Sony receiver an interesting choice; it obviously delievers the goods. What model is that? I understand your reasoning for the set-up. It makes perfect sense, but I just cringe when I have to listen to my NS-10Ms for any length of time. Of course I'm running them factory flat, maybe they need some EQ sweetening.

I have the NS-10Ms/hafler, Mackie 824s and Tannoy DMT-12s/Crown DC300 for stereo foldback but now I'm thinking the Macks & Tannoys might make a decent surround system, ... to my old tin ear they're better sounding than the dear ole Yamablasters. hmmm...

 

[Ted Spencer]

I find the Sony receiver an interesting choice; it obviously delievers the goods. What model is that?

It's a DA3ES, probably about 6 years old or so, that was in my living room audio/video system until I replaced it with a Denon 2809ci in February. I was very unconvinced that I'd like it in a control room environment since all its signal processing, including EQ, is digital. It always sounded fine in the living room, but I was concerned that I'd hear the A/D/A conversion in a bad way in a more critical listening environment, especially since the converters would presumably be far from the latest and greatest. Thankfully, it sounds really good with the Yamahas, even with a touch of EQ on them. Believe it or not, that would be a 1db rolloff at 100 Hz shelving due to the NS10s proximity to a wall! Extensive testing many years ago revealed it to be necessary for the Yamahas to be functionally balanced for music mixing throughout their range.

Before the Sony, I had a Yamaha R-8 receiver on the NS10s for many years. It sounded good, but the Sony is a lot better. The R-8's on the bedroom system now (which is also my "booth" during the daytime), along with the Panasonic plasma EDTV that was in the living room until it got replaced with a Pioneer Elite, also in February. February was like a game of musical chairs with the gear in my place : )

I have the NS-10Ms/hafler, Mackie 824s and Tannoy DMT-12s/Crown DC300 for stereo foldback but now I'm thinking the Macks & Tannoys might make a decent surround system, ... to my old tin ear they're better sounding than the dear ole Yamablasters. hmmm...

Theoretically any good speakers should work if properly setup and, most importantly, well learned and understood by the mixer. You may be shocked, as I was, when you play 5.1 movies through a music-optimized monitor system, how bright everything is. The X-Curve is a real eye-opener, and must be incorporated or your own mixes are likely to sound very dull in comparison (bright monitors tend to foster dull mixes and vice-versa).

Regarding the Hafler/NS10 combo - my recollection of Hafler amps is that they're a bit on the hard/thin sounding side of the spectrum, and thus might not be an ideal match for the likewise hard/thin sounding Yamahas. If you can, you might want to try a different amp. For what it's worth, that Sony DA3ES of mine does seem to match up quite well with them. A major studio here in NYC (Sear Sound) used to have an old Macintosh tube amp on their NS10s (not sure which model), and it sounded like butter. YMMV...

 

[10s]

Thanks, I'll have to change out the Hafler with a tube amp and see if that calms the Yamablasters down a bit. I'll try an old Phase Linear also and see what that does. Yes, a Macintosh tube amp would be nice.

 

[Chamber005]

Love this post! Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but in the interest of this being an explain-all thread, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about an audio mixing program. My friends and I are doing a web project and I'd really like the sound to be better than the average YouTube or Vimeo stuff. The editing software we're using doesn't allow for endless tracks, so I need to do all the mixing in a separate bit of software.

Also, I decided that instead of spending a thousand bucks on a couple of used mics I'm going to rent some from a local vendor. We're only going to be shooting indoors. The mics that the vendor carries that could be applicable are:

Shure SM94

Audio-Technica Pro 37R

Audio-Technica ATR 55

Sennheiser ME66 Pro Shotgun Mic

Alternatively I could purcahse an Oktava MK012 for pretty cheap.

Suggestions?

 

[Noiz2]

Hmmm, This isn't an "explain all" thread. I would kind of like it to stay with post. I would start you question as it's own topic, though the mic questions you could get probably by searching. When you start that thread be more specific about what you are using and what you want new software to do. Fo instance I have no idea what you mean by "endless tracks".

 

[Noiz2]

With out trying to inflate my ego, based on responces I have had I'm wondering if this thread, maybe with some OT removals, shouldn't be made a sticky? There isn't much about post in the stickies so???

 

[Brad S.]

Bump!! Because it is a shame that this has not been made a sticky yet.