Key light overpowering Fill in interviews--ideas?

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benlen

Member
Hey folks,

So I'm working for an organization that has a basic light set up of 3 Lowel Pro lights––they're small, powerful, and need lots of diffusion to make them not so harsh.

That said, when I do a typical interview set up, I set my one key light high and left, and use another light as the "fill," but I still find that I'm not reducing shadows as much as I'd like.

Does anyone have any suggestions in terms of using a setup like this but still getting good results?
 
I know of two ways to get "soft" light. One is to have one big light source that is diffused and close enough to the subject to wrap around them. The other is to have a number of smaller light sources with collimated light in an arc around the subject, literally wrapping light around them.

The lights you describe seem to be smaller, so I'd use a grid to make the light collimated and place it where you'd place a key light (45° camera left or right and elevated a bit). Place the fill light just above the camera, also collimated.

I use this technique with flashes when doing photography and get great results considering the small light source. And you'll have the added benefit of a hair light to make the subject pop even more.
 
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Thanks for the advice guys!

frugivore, when you use the word collimated, could you describe that a bit more? It seems like you're describing an arc of light, but I'm just wondering how feasible that is to achieve with a three point system (literally only a three point system, haha)


My typical set up is:

having the camera looking straight on at the subject

seating myself just to the left of the camera, my subject looking at me as they talk

having my key and fill at 45 degree angles to the subject, with the key elevated and pointed down while the fill is more level with the face.


The real problem with this setup is that the fill is supposed to help eliminate some of those shadows on the opposite should/side of the nose that the key light creates, but for some reason with this light kit I'm running into issues.


 
At the risk of offending frugivore, forget all this "collimated" stuff, benlen.

From your description it sounds like you are not liking the setup because the key is too harsh. It's a small source and it does not "wrap" well as a result. ( does not wrap around the subject's face ).

Assuming this method will provide enough light for your camera- I'd blast two of the Omni lights into a piece of white foam core or, better yet, a piece of bead board. ( thick styrofoam board. ) I would use another piece of white foam core board for the fill light. I'd then use the remaining omni for the hair light or edge light. Just soften that third omni as much as you can with diffusion. If you don't have diffusion aim the hair light / backlight into the ceiling a couple of feet behind the subject or halfway from the lamp's position to the subject's position. You want to create a spot of light on the ceiling that will create a glow on the subject's shoulders and top of head / back of head.

Use BIG pieces of foam core- 4' x 4' if possible. All of this is going to create a soft key and subtle, soft fill. I have lit thousands of interview setups and I have never used a light fixture for fill more than a few times.

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Another method is to put the key light through a piece of 4' x 4' silk or heavy diffusion.

With both techniques- bounced key or key light through silk - you might be able to get away with only one Omni light as the source. If so you can then use an Omni light for a background light. Try something as simple as spotting the Omni at the point where the floor meets the wall behind your subject so you achieve what I call a "low glow", the hot spot you create is hidden by the subject's body and the light bleeds up the wall from behind their shoulders. This technique separates their shoulders and head from the background nicely.

I see others struggling for sufficient fill and it's often because they are sheepish about placing the fill close to the subject. Place that 4 x 4 bounce right up next to the edge of frame for your widest shot. Place it right up next to the subject, even with their ear. The subject should be able to extend their elbow laterally and hit your bounce card ( if you are on a "mid-chest and up" framing ).And place the key as close as you can get it as well. If it's too much light then find a way to reduce the light without moving the key further away from the subject. Use the doors on the omni to reduce the output. Add diffusion to the doors of the Omni acting as the key light. Put strips of black gaff tape across the bounce card to reduce the level of light hitting the subject. Use a dimmer capable of handling the lamp's wattage even though that will change the color temp of the light. Just DON'T back the key source up to reduce it's output. LARGE sources are the key here. A light source can never be too large. I've seen Hollywood DP's light a two person conversation with 20' x 20' sources that are only a few feet from the subjects. That is how they get the light to wrap around the subject.

The height of your key is important. You want to try to achieve a "Rembrandt patch". This is where the key light creates a triangular patch on the cheek of the subject opposite the key. The nose shadow blends with the cheek shadow, like this-

b90f04f964381109efb3400a1ced8ab7.jpg

or this...

6148277104_2b268cfa85_n.jpg

Easier said than done and it can be tough if your subject has deep-set eyes, heavy brow, long nose, all three.

Note the angle of the nose shadow. It's downward trajectory is a result of the key being at a height above the subjects head. Aim for having the middle of the soft key above the person's head. It's okay if the bottom on the soft key ( foamcore bounce or silk ) is even with the person's face. Just make it so that most of the key is higher than the level of their eyes. But don't sweat the angle too much. Focus primarily on obtaining large sources. Large sources are much more flattering to people's faces. A hard key light is very difficult to make flattering.

A final little trick / tip is to place a white bed sheet on the ground in front of the seated subject. Any white material will do. Make it big. Place it under the entire seating setup...under both interviewer and subject. This will provide subtle fill light in addition to your 4 x 4 foam core fill. If you want to be obsessive use a sheet that is more of a slight off-white color, more ivory or cream color. This will match you tungsten lights more closely.
 
Here is the problem

..that has a basic light set up of 3 Lowel Pro lights
Click to expand...


The "organisation" does not have the lights for the task. Some one advised them incorrectly...leaving you with the task of making good.

There are plenty of video tutorials offering better advice and information on these basic set ups. Get the "organisation" to invest in a decent set up to get better results.
 
On the surface of what you're asking, just move the fill light closer and it will "reduce" shadows more, since it'll be brighter.

But that doesn't sound like it'll really solve your problem, in which case I might suggest you're asking the wrong question. Can you give us some examples or pictures, or clarify what's really happening and what you want to accomplish?
 
What wattage lamps are in the Lowell Pros? You cam lamp 125 or 250. It would be good to know this as well. You can buy small inexpensive soft chimera type soft boxes made in Asia that work. Drill a hole in the speed ring that comes with the soft box, put in a short piece of threaded rod with a couple of nuts and slip it in the parasol hole over the Pro.
 
In my early years, Lowels are all I had as well. I still sometimes travel with a Lowel light kit (punch per pound is very good). They aren't as dead simple as some options, but they're definitely useable. Your key is light modifiers.

A few recommendations:
- Lamp them with 250W bulbs. Add a scrim or move the light back as you need. This generally blows fewer bulbs and is easier than constantly re-lamping per project.
- Shoot 2 pro lights into a single white umbrella (the tota-brellas are made for this) or ~4x4 silk, giving you a combined 500W diffused key light.
- Use the 3rd light for rim light (scrimmed and diffused as you like).
- Fill with whatever reflector/foamcore/beadboard works best for the subject. With the minimal light Pro Lights output, you don't need much fill.
- light your background with practicals (desk lamps, other incandescents)
- For flat lighting setups, set two umbrella'd ProLights at equal distance and spread to the subject.

Moving forward on limited budget, a Lowel V-light or Tota Light can be a good inexpensive complement... use it plus an umbrella or 4x4 silk as a key, or shoot it at a ceiling to bring overall ambient levels up, or plenty of other ways.

Here's an interview sample using 1 V-light and 1 Pro-light, both into umbrellae; production kit had to fit in carry-ons

SRO_LA-BECK_HD1080.jpeg



Yeah, Lowels aren't going to cut it as a sole kit for big commercial or narrative projects, but for news-style corporate interviews they're just fine, IMO
 
Bigger picture: the "key is overpowering the fill"...

Forget all that stuff about "3-point lighting" and keys and fills. Light the shot the way you want it to look... more people waste more time starting out trying to mimic some "3-point" tutorial they saw. Get as close to the look you want in the space you're in with the lights you have. Sometimes that takes one light, sometimes 5.

You can get a wide range of looks from a pro-light, scrims, diffusion and bounce, from a hard defining edge light to a soft key. Don't get too hung up on brands if you've got stuff that works in the same color temp range.
 
mcbob said:
Yeah, Lowels aren't going to cut it as a sole kit for big commercial or narrative projects, but for news-style corporate interviews they're just fine, IMO
Click to expand...
I second this. On the other hand the Rifa has made it on many sets, still one of the lightest large source lights out there.

Three other thing I wouldn't want to miss when using the non-Rifa Lowels is gloves, blackwrap and metal clamps;)
 
How about using a sliver or white pop-up reflector for fill, and putting that 3rd light to use as a rim light. Or you might want to bounce it off some foamcore as another fill option. Those prolights are harsh unless diffused, and adding lights usually means adding shadows. There are many lighting tutorials that will help guide you.
 
There's nothing wrong with Lowel's, depending on the situation. I have a few Omni's specifically for use in Chimeras. And I'll second not getting hung-up too much on "3 point lighting". I RARELY use any fill on sit-down interviews. Of course that's dependent on the look I'm going for(or need to do) and the environment, but in general I want shadow on the "opposite key" side and will use "negative fill" if I have to. In fact, I used to work on a high-profile series with a set look and there was no fill OR hair. The background was lit to the Nth degree, but only a single key on the subject.
 
Hey folks, thanks for all the replies! Super helpful information here!

I have an update, and have started to reach an area of success, or at least, get better results than I had before.

For the latest interview shoot I did, I bounced my Key light off a reflector mounted to a C-Stand at a 45 degree angle to the talent's face, which diffused the light considerably and allowed my fill (mounted with a frost) to knock out shadows. I then used the last remaining light as a hair light.


The only problem I had was spill, which is why I'd love a fourth light to use in the background, because right now I have to choose between using the remaining light as a hair light or as a background light to knock out distracting shadows.


A quick question for you pros: Do you guys prefer reflectors or foam core boards for bouncing light? Since I do these shoots alone I don't have a helper to hold a reflector, so I have to mount it to a C-stand and hit it with light.

What are your thoughts?
 
benlen,

I'm a fan of beadboard. And as if you don't have enough good advice here's one more tip:
To make your setup feel more natural, as if it's all one light source, don't cross the 180º axis you create between your subject and your lens with your lighting.

In other words keep your key where it is, keep the hair/rim/edge light on the key side of your setup, and place your fill above the lens. It doesn't have to be in front of your camera, it can be behind or above the camera, just don't cross that 180º line.

I like the idea of keying through the umbrella with the fixtures you have, now play with bouncing your fill into a 2x4 beadboard and see if that feels more natural.
 
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