Jvc ls300

Dave Rochelle said:
but some of the more recent clips I have seen look much better - possibly due to better understanding of the camera's settings by the operators.
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You are absolutely right. For example, there's a color picker to shift the white balance, both in AWB and auto: no one has tried it, yet. The shifter could be useful: every time you perform a new white balance you preserve the shifting. There is a wide dynamic range (WDR) setting: I have never tried it and I have not seen any clip with this setting. If you have a scene with a lot of dark areas you can lower the gamma value to get a better discrimination, but highlights go worst. On the other side, if you have a lot of highlights you can increase the gamma valulue, but dark areas go worst: never tried. All the clips you see is by people that, like me, have shooted mainly with factory settings to test the camera and the lack of scene files doesn't help. Probably, in the next months, we will see a lot of suggested settings on the web.

Anyway, this is a frame with factory settings (I've posted it in another thread, also). The lens is an excellent zuiko 14-35mm f2 and VSM is 86% (so the sensor is remapped, larger than in m43 because the lens produces a bigger circle than others m43 lenses)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/evahlifkdyh78f7/vlcsnap-2015-05-17-11h04m27s200.png?dl=0

Even in factory settings this is not a video look, in my opinion. Rather it is a digital photo look.

Another thing: when you mount a lens that produces a smaller circle than S35 you can decide the right remapping with an utility: you can measure the light in the center and in the angles, so you can be sure that there isn't any vignetting. VSM for m43 lenses normally is 80%, but some lenses have a bigger circle and perform well with 86% and with this VSM value there is not any oversampling

To rent the camera is a good idea: I've bought it after I've tried for 2 days

Regards

Gary
 
Gary Senda said:
Anyway, this is a frame with factory settings (I've posted it in another thread, also). The lens is an excellent zuiko 14-35mm f2 and VSM is 86% (so the sensor is remapped, larger than in m43 because the lens produces a bigger circle than others m43 lenses)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/evahlifkdyh78f7/vlcsnap-2015-05-17-11h04m27s200.png?dl=0

Even in factory settings this is not a video look, in my opinion. Rather it is a digital photo look.
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Thanks for the link, I agree it's a good looking image. The Olympus 14-35mm f2 is one of my favorite lenses as well, for me it's been the saving grace of the AF100 experience. Can you detail for us how well the 14-35mm works with the LS300's automated features? In particular, I'm curious how responsive the on-camera iris and focus controls are, and if the LCD displays focal length and focus distance of the lens like the AF100 does.
 
Lpowell said:
In particular, I'm curious how responsive the on-camera iris and focus controls are, and if the LCD displays focal length and focus distance of the lens like the AF100 does.
Click to expand...

According the user's manual it displays focal lenght value, zoom position (in bar or number) and focus value (in meters or feet). I have not noticed and sincerely I don't remeber (I remember well I could see the aperture value), but consider I've used the camera with manual focus and manual exposure and with a VSM other than m43 setting (86% instead 80%). Probably the camera performs optimally with m43 lenses only if you use the suggested VSM for m43 lenses. I will try and I will report to you, with lumix lenses also

Regards

Gary
 
Not to be a jerk, but no, I would not care to post links to our tests. I stopped doing that some time ago after taking flak from A-holes and receiving nasty PMs for not doing tests their way, or going out of my way to do numerous follow ups with implicit instructions. Besides, folks should conduct their own tests to see if a particular tool meets their own needs. Not the needs of somebody else. I'm not here to bash a camera, or make someone feel bad about their purchase. I just feel this camera is not for me. While I do think it has a "video" look, especially with a sharp modern lens like the Sigma 18-35 or native LUMIX lenses, it did look a little better when mounting older lenses like the Cooke 18-100. And adding a 1/8 or 1/4 HBM filter helped even more. Green screen footage keyed just fine, but I have not had issues keying in a very long time. The filter wheel was very handy outdoors. I know this is an inexpensive camera, but I have grown tired of cameras which feel plasticy, and have nasty highlight clipping artifacts no matter the knee setting. Maybe with future software updates this camera will really shine.

All the best!

Dave
 
Nice image. Very sharp. Looks like an image from a digital camera, not filmic, but it has good rich colors. I am intrigued by this camera, but would have like to have a waveform and vectorscope or at least a histogram. I do run with external monitors that have scope outputs , but it is nice to have the tools built in. My take: my experience with JVC through the years has not been stellar and that is what colors my feelings for this camera; I will probably wait for Panasonic's all-in-one version coming out in the Fall or go for the FS7.

Gary Senda said:
You are absolutely right. For example, there's a color picker to shift the white balance, both in AWB and auto: no one has tried it, yet. The shifter could be useful: every time you perform a new white balance you preserve the shifting. There is a wide dynamic range (WDR) setting: I have never tried it and I have not seen any clip with this setting. If you have a scene with a lot of dark areas you can lower the gamma value to get a better discrimination, but highlights go worst. On the other side, if you have a lot of highlights you can increase the gamma valulue, but dark areas go worst: never tried. All the clips you see is by people that, like me, have shooted mainly with factory settings to test the camera and the lack of scene files doesn't help. Probably, in the next months, we will see a lot of suggested settings on the web.

Anyway, this is a frame with factory settings (I've posted it in another thread, also). The lens is an excellent zuiko 14-35mm f2 and VSM is 86% (so the sensor is remapped, larger than in m43 because the lens produces a bigger circle than others m43 lenses)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/evahlifkdyh78f7/vlcsnap-2015-05-17-11h04m27s200.png?dl=0

Even in factory settings this is not a video look, in my opinion. Rather it is a digital photo look.

Another thing: when you mount a lens that produces a smaller circle than S35 you can decide the right remapping with an utility: you can measure the light in the center and in the angles, so you can be sure that there isn't any vignetting. VSM for m43 lenses normally is 80%, but some lenses have a bigger circle and perform well with 86% and with this VSM value there is not any oversampling

To rent the camera is a good idea: I've bought it after I've tried for 2 days

Regards

Gary
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Lpowell said:
Care to provide a download link to the original footage you used to make these evaluations? Not to dispute your personal tastes, but let's be frank about what we're basing our judgments on.
Click to expand...


Some of the earliest footage that appeared online during NAB week was among the worst to my eyes but I did not save any of the links. This more recent one shows what I would call a narrower dynamic range typical of a "video" look with respect to the way highlights appear on sky, bright colored clothing and skin tone:
https://vimeo.com/127439476

Even well-exposed areas in this video that have high contrast show a really distinct video-looking edge that is not to my personal taste. In comparison, I think the GoPro shots (see around 2:00) show much better than the LS300 under the same conditions... in this particular video.

In just the past couple of days, however, I have done a lot more looking around at recent clips and have come to the conclusion that settings may play a huge role in this sort of look. I've seen a lot of clips just today that seem to exhibit much greater dynamic range and better handling of contrasty scenes.

This clip I found today is definitely getting closer to my ballpark:
https://youtu.be/6HCqu9ifCog


And by "better" I mean that subjectively to some degree. I know what I like and what I want to get out of a camera - others may feel differently.
 
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This is some of the best exposed footage I've seen but in several shots to hold the highlights much of the rest of the shot is quite under exposed...I guess they were really guarding against that ... As this Camera does not seem to handle it well...
 
Tye said:
This is some of the best exposed footage I've seen but in several shots to hold the highlights much of the rest of the shot is quite under exposed...I guess they were really guarding against that ... As this Camera does not seem to handle it well...
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Yes - and that's certainly one of the things I've learned to deal with in using the AF100, but would prefer not to have to do to the same extent with a new camera. I'm hopeful that some combination of exposure and gamma lift using the controls the LS300 gives might be useful in protecting highlights without losing shadow detail. Will definitely have to rent one and try it out.
 
Tye said:
This is some of the best exposed footage I've seen but in several shots to hold the highlights much of the rest of the shot is quite under exposed...I guess they were really guarding against that ... As this Camera does not seem to handle it well...
Click to expand...

I disagree. If most users here were once AF100 owners, then they knew the DR was piss poor.
 
It's true Af100 users are familiar with highlight handling problems, myself included,
but my comments were solely about my thoughts on the LS300 footage....not comparing anything.
So far from the footage I've seen, the LS300's highlight handling needs an 'attitudinal adjustment' ...
 
Hi

First I would like to apologize for my poor english. I read all the post about the LS 300 and would like to give you some feedback on that Cam. I bought the LS 300 2 weeks ago. So that's true direct from the box it's not so great but it seems to me it's not done to use this way, and I think it can be a very good tool with the good setting.
So this is mine and seems pretty good to me. So Details -10 or off. Master black +10. Black Toe Stretch level 3. Knee level 85%. White clip 108%. Gamma cinema level 0. WDR off. Color matrix cinema subdued. Color Gain -3.
This setting make a picture quite flat so you need of course color grading. The look become very soft with lots off details. With good exposition (not like some footage I saw on the web) seems like you have a good dynamic range. I shot until now exclusively on hd 422 50P. I use some samyang cine lens mft, with them you have the full s35 no crop. I also have some lumix and olympus lens, everything is compatible électrique zoom, AF. I think with a bit more time i'm going to find more setup for différent situation and memorize them on the card. With this setting and color grading the picture become very cinematic.
I'm going to match shoot from my BMPPC and the LS 300 for the next job and I'm pretty sure it will be quite comparable. I will post some footage test letter.

My next upgrade I guess will the BM video assist to have the possibility to record in proves 50P.

Last thing the view finder is terrible or may be my eyes!!! Fortunately I already had a cineroid.

Franck
 
Gary...

Your highlights look well exposed as you pointed out.
I have seen other footage like your frame grab. But, some parts of the foreground are under
exposed as yours are and have lost detail. So, this all points to the camera's problem that I've
seen. When you expose the mids and lows properly the highlights are not handled gracefully...
some of the highlights look almost cartoonish...and when that is next to some nicely exposed
parts....well at that point it just looks shocking! More DR would certainly help this but
for the low hanging fruit improvement... it's handling of over exposed highlights would seem
to be the way to go. You never know...this could be just a firmware tweeK or two...

Franck...

I would be very interested to some of your ungraded footage....so far I have only seen
one clip that had a little of that 'cinematic/organic' look but it had a fair amount of odd looking highlights
which drew my attention away from the otherwise well exposed clip...



cheers...Tye
 
Hi,

I tried a bit with the ls300 at my dealer and I like the camera. There are two points I couldn´t find out, Franck, maybe you can help me:

1. I like the idea of using the zoom lever for the focus. I tried that with a Lumix 20mm Pancake and the Lumix 7-14mm WW. With both it was so fast and nervous, it was nearly impossible to find the focus point properly without passing it several times. I found the setting in the Menü for the zoom speed but nothing for the focus speed
2. the "Push Auto Focus" didn´t work with the 20mm

Thanks

Ralf

P: And sorry for my english as well....
 
Tye said:
Gary Senda said:
You can evaluate the highlight handling and the dynamic range by yourself. These are extreme conditions: the sun is just out of the frame, at the side of the left upper corner. Camera settings: factory settings (video gamma and video color matrix, wide dynamic range disabled). Lens: Samyang 24mm f1.5.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bimzfxpglaclxqn/vlcsnap-2015-05-24-21h33m42s206.png?dl=0
Click to expand...

Your highlights look well exposed as you pointed out.
I have seen other footage like your frame grab. But, some parts of the foreground are under
exposed as yours are and have lost detail. So, this all points to the camera's problem that I've
seen. When you expose the mids and lows properly the highlights are not handled gracefully...
some of the highlights look almost cartoonish...and when that is next to some nicely exposed
parts....well at that point it just looks shocking!
Click to expand...
This post is a good example of the shallow appreciation of exposure shown by many who claim that nothing but high-DR cameras are worth considering. As Gary Senda noted, the downloaded frame grab was shot with the LS300's default video settings, i.e. a Rec 709 gamma of 2.2. Any camera set to that gamma curve that is properly exposed for extreme highlights will show you the same thing: dark shadow details. Higher image sensor DR would not make those 8-bit H.264 shadow details any finer.

What would make a difference is taking advantage of a built-in feature that to my knowledge is unique to the LS300 - its numerically calibrated gamma adjustment control. Increasing the gamma setting would allow you to boost the exposure of mid-range and shadow details, without altering the highlight and black level exposure. With DSLR's that support custom tone curves it is possible to craft calibrated gamma curves that produce comparable gamma control options as the LS300's built-in gamma control. I've done exactly that with Nikon cameras, and you can see ungraded sample footage here:


In this video "gamma level 1.0" corresponds to the standard Rec 709 gamma of 2.2. Higher gamma levels multiply that base gamma level to larger gamma values. As the gamma is increased, notice how details emerge from the dark shadows, while the exposure of the brightest and blackest areas remains unchanged. This is comparable to what the LS300's built-in gamma control enables you to do, independently of color matrix, tone curve, and ISO exposure settings. I would be most interested to know of any other video camera on the market that provides this capability.
 
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Hi Ralph

I have no idea because I hardly use auto focus and didn't try the zoom lever for focus. I use everything in manual most of the time (I think all the time actually). But I will have a look wit the lumix 20mm for the "push"

Franck
 
You have missed the point....added DR is good...but as I mentioned...it's the way this
camera handles over exposed highlights that is most concerning .... Regardless of it's
DR capabilities.....

Cheers...Tye
 
Tye said:
You have missed the point....added DR is good...but as I mentioned...it's the way this
camera handles over exposed highlights that is most concerning .... Regardless of it's
DR capabilities.....
Click to expand...
I rest my case - you're still talking vaguely about DR and highlight "handling" even after I demonstrate that the real issue lies in gamma control.
 
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