Jusgorilla
Well-known member
Whats the name of the Movie stats79?
Just got a new camera - Sony F35
- Thread starter macgregor
- Start date
I'm sure they recorded to HDcam SR. Looked at some behind the scenes pictures and they all ways had the SR1(or whatever it is) mounted on the camera. Even for steadycam shots. Name of the movie is "Under the Roman Sky". Italian made, so it also goes by the title of "Sotto il cielo di Roma".
I got my SRW 9000PL today and played around with it a little. Actually, if the f35 is anything like its little brother, it is pretty noisy/grainy camera. Was kind of freaked by how noisy. Then looked back at the footage from this Italian film. It has the same sort of fine grain noise in the highlights and even larger grain in the shadows as my 9000pl. I think the grain is part of its charm.
Jusgorilla
Well-known member
Definitely, but remember film is grainier.
I was also freaked out by the noise, but that has passed with a few things to consider for cleaner footage:
1. Black balance at the top of the day ( beginning of the shoot, when cam is up to temp)
2. Use high quality HD SDI cables
3. Expose higher up in the range(without clipping) it is super clean up there, and very "creamy" (obviously only if you have enough light for the scene)
4. In low contrast/low dynamic scenes, switch to custom mode, setup gamma to Slog, S Gamut, but choose to switch off "Extended range" (you'll loose some highlight latitude, but its fine for low contrast scenes) switch off matrix and any artificial detail/sharpening etc and you can also try the Noise suppression, but I haven't yet. (in Cine/Cine EI mode, all these "paint" operations are switched off and not available)
5. Shoot 444 (HQ) 880mbs, less noise.
But if you want the grain, by all means expose under, and enjoy the film like grain
Jusgorilla
Well-known member
Speaking of noise/grain/lattitude
I stumbled upon a website.
Very interesting, Philippe Ros (cinematographer) and his team of film makers and engineers have been custom making gamma curves for various camera's for years (besides making interesting movies and shorts etc)
They felt the factory gammas weren't getting the most out the sensors, and the gammas weren't "one fits all" concerning different lenses.
So these guys and their engineers made custom software and analysis tools to create custom gammas to prove the sensors were capable of so much more. an example specific to the F35, called the HDS 400 gamma, see webpage:
http://www.philipperos.com/content.php?id=14&page=2 (obviously Vimeo sux balls if peeping shadow noise, and alas, no download, but you will definitely see the difference)
Now read the tech info on the side, they claim they managed to gain a stop and a half more shadow latitude, as well as ELIMINATE the noise.
Now I got exited, and emailed Philippe asking if I could have the F35 HDS 400 gamma (cheeky, I know) and he immediately wanted to have a skype chat about it. We spoke for an hour, and I really enjoyed his knowledge and experience. but what about that gamma Philippe? "Well", he said, "We developed these various gammas over years, and custom made each gamma custom for each set of lenses to get the best out of the given lense families/characteristics, with engineers etc etc, so HD Systems would want my camera sent in, with lenses, and they will tailor make the log gammas for Cine/Cine EI, including custom mode settings to suite both the gammas and lenses... for 1000 Euros!!!"
Now maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but 1 and a 1/2 extra stop in the shadows, and virtually no noise is no joke to me. and these guys have done this consistently over the years with many cameras from the F900 to the F35 to the F65 (check their F65 test called citibot B/W http://www.philipperos.com/content.php?id=61&page=1
and the colour version:
https://vimeo.com/57020808
Now they shot these "Citybot" shorts as a teat to see how low light they could go on the F65, with low noise, and the results are really good. Philippe assures me these gammas not only increase dynamic range, but virtually KILL all noise.
Now is 1000 Euros worth it? to have gammas that complement our lenses and sensors, more so than the standard ones, which obviously don't maximise the image capabilities??
Damn, I begged and begged, to get the F35 HDS 400 gamma for free. but to no avail.
Just thought I'd share, at least a good read.
I stumbled upon a website.
Very interesting, Philippe Ros (cinematographer) and his team of film makers and engineers have been custom making gamma curves for various camera's for years (besides making interesting movies and shorts etc)
They felt the factory gammas weren't getting the most out the sensors, and the gammas weren't "one fits all" concerning different lenses.
So these guys and their engineers made custom software and analysis tools to create custom gammas to prove the sensors were capable of so much more. an example specific to the F35, called the HDS 400 gamma, see webpage:
http://www.philipperos.com/content.php?id=14&page=2 (obviously Vimeo sux balls if peeping shadow noise, and alas, no download, but you will definitely see the difference)
Now read the tech info on the side, they claim they managed to gain a stop and a half more shadow latitude, as well as ELIMINATE the noise.
Now I got exited, and emailed Philippe asking if I could have the F35 HDS 400 gamma (cheeky, I know) and he immediately wanted to have a skype chat about it. We spoke for an hour, and I really enjoyed his knowledge and experience. but what about that gamma Philippe? "Well", he said, "We developed these various gammas over years, and custom made each gamma custom for each set of lenses to get the best out of the given lense families/characteristics, with engineers etc etc, so HD Systems would want my camera sent in, with lenses, and they will tailor make the log gammas for Cine/Cine EI, including custom mode settings to suite both the gammas and lenses... for 1000 Euros!!!"
Now maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but 1 and a 1/2 extra stop in the shadows, and virtually no noise is no joke to me. and these guys have done this consistently over the years with many cameras from the F900 to the F35 to the F65 (check their F65 test called citibot B/W http://www.philipperos.com/content.php?id=61&page=1
and the colour version:
https://vimeo.com/57020808
Now they shot these "Citybot" shorts as a teat to see how low light they could go on the F65, with low noise, and the results are really good. Philippe assures me these gammas not only increase dynamic range, but virtually KILL all noise.
Now is 1000 Euros worth it? to have gammas that complement our lenses and sensors, more so than the standard ones, which obviously don't maximise the image capabilities??
Damn, I begged and begged, to get the F35 HDS 400 gamma for free. but to no avail.
Just thought I'd share, at least a good read.
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Definitely, but remember film is grainier.
I was also freaked out by the noise, but that has passed with a few things to consider for cleaner footage:
1. Black balance at the top of the day ( beginning of the shoot, when cam is up to temp)
2. Use high quality HD SDI cables
3. Expose higher up in the range(without clipping) it is super clean up there, and very "creamy" (obviously only if you have enough light for the scene)
4. In low contrast/low dynamic scenes, switch to custom mode, setup gamma to Slog, S Gamut, but choose to switch off "Extended range" (you'll loose some highlight latitude, but its fine for low contrast scenes) switch off matrix and any artificial detail/sharpening etc and you can also try the Noise suppression, but I haven't yet. (in Cine/Cine EI mode, all these "paint" operations are switched off and not available)
5. Shoot 444 (HQ) 880mbs, less noise.
But if you want the grain, by all means expose under, and enjoy the film like grain
Wow, thanks for the info. Good to know someone else was a bit concerned about the noise of these cameras. I'm going to print out all your suggestions and tape them to the top of my camera case.
Spartacus
Veteran
Isn´t that around what the Sony Log update for the F3 was priced at (in Europe at least...)?
1K is a lot off money, especially for you in the US, but kind of reasonable considering what kind of camera and market we're talking of...
If someone would deliver another stop for the C300 via a service like this, they would probably have to hire staff to deal with demand, even with that pricetag
macgregor
Veteran
Pretty noisy? Really? Were you exposing correctly? Because unless you're underexposing, the footage this camera produces is pretty clean.
macgregor
Veteran
While an increase in DR is great, that footage loses some of the filmic tone I love so much from the F35. But I'd need to see more examples.
Ask him for the gammas, without sending the camera - makes no sense to me to have the gammas custom made to the lenses, I use all shorts of lenses, not just one set- and we can split the price among a few users.
Jusgorilla
Well-known member
True, I was also thinking about the look we love about the F35, and I also use all sorts of lenses.
I'll ask him for the gammas without sending the cam in, and we could always find a use for the gamma I'm sure, especially when we dont have enough light on hand.
Who is willing to chip in?
mlysbakken
Well-known member
This is something I could be interested in Would love to see a little more footage, though.
Would love to see a little more footage, though.Jusgorilla
Well-known member
I'll see what Philippe can do, hopefully he has more footage...
Alex Roman
Active member
This is probably the BEST F35 footage i've ever seen 'til date. Congrats mate
Any chance of HD?
Alex Roman
Active member
Somehow -and after watching lots of F65 footage samples- i see F35 WAY more filmic overall. Does it make any sense? (despite F65 DR and gamut...) ¡!
Yeah, I'm a little worried. Had borrowed some PL lenses and didn't have much time to shoot. May have been underexposed. Will not be able to do more extensive testing until next week. Looking at some of the footage from Under the Roman Sky, and it does seem noisy in the blacks. Similar to what I saw with my camera. -rs
mlysbakken
Well-known member
Well, at least software-based noise reduction has come quite far
JMtheDP
Veteran
Quite simply put, this camera is NOT perfectly clean and noise-free in the vein of some DSLRs, etc etc...
You have to remember its a 13mp sensor in a very small space and it's a ten year old design (at least).
You MUST treat the camera like film and once something is exposed, it is beautiful and noise-free. I think, from my testing, the stuff I get which is quite dark and "noisy" on some other cameras simply wouldn't be exposed at all!
One thing I do stress, however, is do not use the higher gain modes in the dark. I tend to use CINE-EI mode and open up the shutter to 220 degrees. That's usually plenty for night-time stuff. I will forward some samples soon.
You have to remember its a 13mp sensor in a very small space and it's a ten year old design (at least).
You MUST treat the camera like film and once something is exposed, it is beautiful and noise-free. I think, from my testing, the stuff I get which is quite dark and "noisy" on some other cameras simply wouldn't be exposed at all!
One thing I do stress, however, is do not use the higher gain modes in the dark. I tend to use CINE-EI mode and open up the shutter to 220 degrees. That's usually plenty for night-time stuff. I will forward some samples soon.
Sparky874
Well-known member
Definitely, but remember film is grainier.
I was also freaked out by the noise, but that has passed with a few things to consider for cleaner footage:
1. Black balance at the top of the day ( beginning of the shoot, when cam is up to temp)
2. Use high quality HD SDI cables
3. Expose higher up in the range(without clipping) it is super clean up there, and very "creamy" (obviously only if you have enough light for the scene)
4. In low contrast/low dynamic scenes, switch to custom mode, setup gamma to Slog, S Gamut, but choose to switch off "Extended range" (you'll loose some highlight latitude, but its fine for low contrast scenes) switch off matrix and any artificial detail/sharpening etc and you can also try the Noise suppression, but I haven't yet. (in Cine/Cine EI mode, all these "paint" operations are switched off and not available)
5. Shoot 444 (HQ) 880mbs, less noise.
But if you want the grain, by all means expose under, and enjoy the film like grain
just a quickie, I am interested in the remark 'exposé higher up in the range', are we suggesting that when shooting interior shots the grey levels can be higher when shooting slog? I make a point of keeping them around 38 for interior and exterior shooting. What do you think? Sparky.
Bit more concerned today. Looked back at the footage from yesterday and the noise seems excessive. Won't have any lenses or batteries for testing until the end of the week.
Here is a still. Dark room and only lights from the switcher. I've also posted the footage on vimeo. Would be curious to know if I've got an issue or is this par for the course.
Here is the vimeo link: https://vimeo.com/68732630
eddavid
Carbonite Member
There is definitely noise in the image when it's underexposed - using extended dynamic range is like shooting at +3db - and yes we all need to remember this sensor is from the end of the era of the hvx200 and the varicam, where the CCD definitely has some more grain than the CMOS - but I like the grain - I used to have this grain on the days I shot with the ex1 and the letus ultimate adapter and I kind of don't like the newer cameras how clean they are - how clinical - it gives it some organic nature. But yes, I need to shoot more with 444 out to the PIX 240 and test the noise. It's back to the older days with an ASA of 450 vs all these new 800 ASA and 1600 ASA cameras. And I like it. It's not about subtracting light, it's about adding.
It's a different game again of course - one of the reasons why like Deakins said if he had the choice, he would shoot Kundun again with Alexa so he wouldn't have to lug as many lights up that mountain.
It's a different game again of course - one of the reasons why like Deakins said if he had the choice, he would shoot Kundun again with Alexa so he wouldn't have to lug as many lights up that mountain.
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