Just got a new camera - Sony F35
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LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
JM, how long have you had your F35? I'm loving mine a lot too. Just doing the battle to find the right recorder. After an exhaustive research and brain-squeeze, I think the SR series is the best bet.
Jusgorilla
Well-known member
I'm also squeezing the brain on the recorder issue. But im going cinedeck, as it records almost any codec you'd want (ProRes all flavas, DnxHD all flavas, Cineform etc etc, albeit 50P is only 8bit 422), and has a screen for reference/histogram etc.
With an EVF AND the Cinedeck screen I think I'm covered in terms of exposure and reference.
Although it is 10bit max, as apposed to the SR 12bit.
Problem with the SR is no way to see what you got, so an external monitor is compulsory, also only has the Sony SR codec option, which isn't native on some NLE's like Premiere (so transcoding necessary before editing) and you'd need the SR memory card reader to get your footage across at another $2000! and have you seen the price of those SR cards?
The Pix 240 does 12bit 444, but no 50P at all, and for that 12bit you need a 3G multiplexer to join the dual link HD sdi into a 3G Hd SDI.
The codex is the best all round option, but a mortgage loan is needed.
With an EVF AND the Cinedeck screen I think I'm covered in terms of exposure and reference.
Although it is 10bit max, as apposed to the SR 12bit.
Problem with the SR is no way to see what you got, so an external monitor is compulsory, also only has the Sony SR codec option, which isn't native on some NLE's like Premiere (so transcoding necessary before editing) and you'd need the SR memory card reader to get your footage across at another $2000! and have you seen the price of those SR cards?
The Pix 240 does 12bit 444, but no 50P at all, and for that 12bit you need a 3G multiplexer to join the dual link HD sdi into a 3G Hd SDI.
The codex is the best all round option, but a mortgage loan is needed.
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Disclosure/disclaimer: These are my opinions/findings. While I believe them to be true and accurate, I'm not a scientist and have not owned all of these devices. I have spent a great deal of time on reviews, hands-on and work-flow scrutiny.
Pix240i: I've done a fair amount of testing with the Pix240 and am pleased with it's design, menus, audio (of course they are Sound Design) but the 4444 encode/decode issue is a deal-breaker. ProRes and/or the recorder doesn't handle the SLOG properly, thus clipping the highlight end. Since the input is 3G HDSI, it indeed requires a multiplexer. Blackmagic's box doesn't send 12-bit to it, in spite of their specs. Theory says that it may just be removing SDI flags so the Pix240 doesn't see it as 12-bit. I have no SDI analyzer to verify this. Another user here reports that the AJA box has a dip switch for 10-12 bit and does show as being 12-bit on the Pix240. Does that mean it's adding a flag to the SDI stream? Who knows. AJA tech did tell me that it should do 12-bit ok. BlackMagic's Tech support tells me, "the device just passes through what it sees" and that "the extra dip switches on the box do nothing at all". Not sold on either.
Cinedeck certainly has some nice options: all of those codecs, great exposure tools, etc. But, big/bulky, relies on a PC and is a power-hog.
The no 12-bit so it gets a big ding for that, but the huge codec/uncompressed availability makes up, I think!? I've surmised that it also records and converts almost anything that you throw at it and has real-time up/down convert. It seems that they are migrating toward rack-mount/bigger units, so it appears it may be at the end of it's life cycle.
Gemini: Great quality (uncompressed). Does 10 and 12-bit, but due to the 29.97 of the F35 being PsF, Gemini will not record in 12-bit mode. 24P 444 12-bit no problem. And then, of course, there's the audio issue. It records 2 channels through SDI ONLY! (external audio in is not enabled at this time). Pros: very small, light weight, uncompressed. DNxHD is coming, but not sure when. (until it's shipping, it's not a reality) They just dropped the price of it $1k with two 512GB drives. This gives you appx 80 mins of record time at 24P. A point of concern/issue is that since the Gemini records RGB 16-bit DPX files, if you are throwing 422 Y'CbCr in does a colorspace conversion (on the fly in it's mega-cores) to RGB and then records. So, if you do 422 a lot, probably not the best option. Tech support availability is STELLAR. What other device manufacturer offers-up contact info (email, Skype, cell phone for 24/7 contact availability).
Sony SRR1. Great features, great Sony specs, records almost anything that the camera throws at it. BUT, it's big/heavy, usually comes with media, but yes--very expensive. Very little current SStP support, yet with the F5/55 using it now, there will surely be wide support shortly. There's the mounting it issue too: thanks Sony for dropping the ball on the SRR3 and ditching what was probably the most expensive cinema camera you ever sold! Mounting/powering the SR is another caveat: yes, you need their gangster-priced docking plate kit (another $470--why isn't it in the kit you ask? Because when they raised the price of the SRR1, they took it out so they could jack-up buyers another $470--talk about double bend-over). You would think that if you pay for the kit, you could dock it easily. No deal: Another $2K plus for the PIM-SR and then it still uses the HDSDI, so the only real benefit is getting power from the camera. If you don't wanna dock it to the camera, you could opt for the Chrosziel rail mount for a paltry $1400+ (and still require the $470 Sony mount). One would think that if one actually pony'd-up for the PIM-SR mount, which Sony collaborated/licensed with Cinema Interfaces, the record button would trigger the camera, etc. NO DEAL. The SDI flags sent for record triggering are Sony's own flavor which they specifically won't grant access to by third party manufacturers. Ok Sony, why the F35 can't trigger YOUR recorder is beyond comprehension. This kinda rogue/gangster behavior makes Red look like girl scouts. Lastly, plan to plunk-down another $2k for a Sony card reader...no other options here. On the Tech-support issue...good luck!
(Disclosure note: A fellow F35 owner here figured out a way to manufacture a custom mount for less and seems to love his SRR1.)
As I've navigated and labored over these choices, it's become apparent to me that they all have their strengths and caveats. Also, what's important to me, isn't necessarily important to the next DP. From what I've seen, there's diminishing returns in going 444 over 422 for most of what I shoot.
Hope this helps someone looking at all of the options too.
Pix240i: I've done a fair amount of testing with the Pix240 and am pleased with it's design, menus, audio (of course they are Sound Design) but the 4444 encode/decode issue is a deal-breaker. ProRes and/or the recorder doesn't handle the SLOG properly, thus clipping the highlight end. Since the input is 3G HDSI, it indeed requires a multiplexer. Blackmagic's box doesn't send 12-bit to it, in spite of their specs. Theory says that it may just be removing SDI flags so the Pix240 doesn't see it as 12-bit. I have no SDI analyzer to verify this. Another user here reports that the AJA box has a dip switch for 10-12 bit and does show as being 12-bit on the Pix240. Does that mean it's adding a flag to the SDI stream? Who knows. AJA tech did tell me that it should do 12-bit ok. BlackMagic's Tech support tells me, "the device just passes through what it sees" and that "the extra dip switches on the box do nothing at all". Not sold on either.
Cinedeck certainly has some nice options: all of those codecs, great exposure tools, etc. But, big/bulky, relies on a PC and is a power-hog.
The no 12-bit so it gets a big ding for that, but the huge codec/uncompressed availability makes up, I think!? I've surmised that it also records and converts almost anything that you throw at it and has real-time up/down convert. It seems that they are migrating toward rack-mount/bigger units, so it appears it may be at the end of it's life cycle.
Gemini: Great quality (uncompressed). Does 10 and 12-bit, but due to the 29.97 of the F35 being PsF, Gemini will not record in 12-bit mode. 24P 444 12-bit no problem. And then, of course, there's the audio issue. It records 2 channels through SDI ONLY! (external audio in is not enabled at this time). Pros: very small, light weight, uncompressed. DNxHD is coming, but not sure when. (until it's shipping, it's not a reality) They just dropped the price of it $1k with two 512GB drives. This gives you appx 80 mins of record time at 24P. A point of concern/issue is that since the Gemini records RGB 16-bit DPX files, if you are throwing 422 Y'CbCr in does a colorspace conversion (on the fly in it's mega-cores) to RGB and then records. So, if you do 422 a lot, probably not the best option. Tech support availability is STELLAR. What other device manufacturer offers-up contact info (email, Skype, cell phone for 24/7 contact availability).
Sony SRR1. Great features, great Sony specs, records almost anything that the camera throws at it. BUT, it's big/heavy, usually comes with media, but yes--very expensive. Very little current SStP support, yet with the F5/55 using it now, there will surely be wide support shortly. There's the mounting it issue too: thanks Sony for dropping the ball on the SRR3 and ditching what was probably the most expensive cinema camera you ever sold! Mounting/powering the SR is another caveat: yes, you need their gangster-priced docking plate kit (another $470--why isn't it in the kit you ask? Because when they raised the price of the SRR1, they took it out so they could jack-up buyers another $470--talk about double bend-over). You would think that if you pay for the kit, you could dock it easily. No deal: Another $2K plus for the PIM-SR and then it still uses the HDSDI, so the only real benefit is getting power from the camera. If you don't wanna dock it to the camera, you could opt for the Chrosziel rail mount for a paltry $1400+ (and still require the $470 Sony mount). One would think that if one actually pony'd-up for the PIM-SR mount, which Sony collaborated/licensed with Cinema Interfaces, the record button would trigger the camera, etc. NO DEAL. The SDI flags sent for record triggering are Sony's own flavor which they specifically won't grant access to by third party manufacturers. Ok Sony, why the F35 can't trigger YOUR recorder is beyond comprehension. This kinda rogue/gangster behavior makes Red look like girl scouts. Lastly, plan to plunk-down another $2k for a Sony card reader...no other options here. On the Tech-support issue...good luck!
(Disclosure note: A fellow F35 owner here figured out a way to manufacture a custom mount for less and seems to love his SRR1.)
As I've navigated and labored over these choices, it's become apparent to me that they all have their strengths and caveats. Also, what's important to me, isn't necessarily important to the next DP. From what I've seen, there's diminishing returns in going 444 over 422 for most of what I shoot.
Hope this helps someone looking at all of the options too.
In other words, the point of getting the camera to record 444 12bit is kind of collapsing?
I still say, why not just use the camera as it was intended to be used? With a SRW-1?
Yes it's heavy, power hungry and it's tape. But you get all the camera was made to give you and it just works! All this headache and going through hoops to find a work around seem barely worth the trouble.
Otherwise just stick it into a Hyperdeck Shuttle and be happy.
I still say, why not just use the camera as it was intended to be used? With a SRW-1?
Yes it's heavy, power hungry and it's tape. But you get all the camera was made to give you and it just works! All this headache and going through hoops to find a work around seem barely worth the trouble.
Otherwise just stick it into a Hyperdeck Shuttle and be happy.
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
I think you are trying to put words in my mouth. I'd wager that NONE of the recent purchasers of F35's did so for the 444 12-bit.
The 444-12bit is a nice add,good for bragging rights and/or very specific use, but if you read the last part of my post, you'll see that for me 422-10bit seems to be fine. If practical, however, having additional capability would be favorable.
The 444-12bit is a nice add,good for bragging rights and/or very specific use, but if you read the last part of my post, you'll see that for me 422-10bit seems to be fine. If practical, however, having additional capability would be favorable.
Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. This is why my sentence was formed as a question. I was honestly asking.
I'm not saying all F35 buyers here bought the cameras for the 12 bit 444. But there was a huge deal being made of it by several people and in my opinion this is indeed the biggest advantage of buying this camera. Otherwise what you got is a very big, fat and heavy F3 that allocates more dynamic range to the highlights. Of course there are more little details and liking the camera feel counts. But I guess you get what I mean. 12 bit 444 is indeed a huge part of the camera and most if not all films shot with it used that and i will risk to say that it was the reason it got chosen over other cameras of the time.
I'm not saying all F35 buyers here bought the cameras for the 12 bit 444. But there was a huge deal being made of it by several people and in my opinion this is indeed the biggest advantage of buying this camera. Otherwise what you got is a very big, fat and heavy F3 that allocates more dynamic range to the highlights. Of course there are more little details and liking the camera feel counts. But I guess you get what I mean. 12 bit 444 is indeed a huge part of the camera and most if not all films shot with it used that and i will risk to say that it was the reason it got chosen over other cameras of the time.
My guess is that the comparisons are no longer coming. Maybe once it was clear they were pretty close it killed any interest of showing the results. Because believe me, they are pretty close. The F35 is a high-end camera but it's also 5 years older than the F3. It becomes a matter of trade offs. What's more important for you? The F35 definitely doesn't smash the F3 as many would believe. If you need to shoot in low light, F3 hands down. If you want 12 bit, you need the F35. F35 will do a bit better under harsh sunlight. But the F3 in S-log is no slouch as it gains an extra stop in the highlights compared to the standard gammas.
I think you pretty much got the lowdown on each cameras advantages there though.
There's also a lot of subjectivity in it. Which image you like best?
The F35 is a high-end camera and as such it brings a lot of nice little details. But is it worth the extra weight, bulk, workarounds and troubles that an older and discontinued camera can bring (also pray that it doesn't break)? Only you can decide.
I was in the very same boat a little while ago. Get a F35 or a F3? Did LOTS of research and also test drives of both. I decided to wait for now. Once NAB comes I will decide what my next step will be.
macgregor
Veteran
Sorry but I have to stop you there.
The F35 is not 5 years older than the F3.
And the F3 was launched for indie productions and as a B camera for F35 productions.
If they look the same to your eyes, fine. I guess my eyes are much more picky than yours, and I can tell the difference right away between high end video looks and prosumer look. Yes, specs apart. This also applies to everyone asking for a comparison, if you need to ask, then this camera is not for you.
Think about this: if the F3 is ligher, better at everything and costs 1/10 of a F35, why do/did they use it to shoot feautures, TV ads and TV dramas? Shouldn't the DoP and Producer prefer the F3?
Edit: why not comparing the FS100 here? It's probably cleaner than any of the above. Oh wait, it screams home video despite the DOF. My mistake.
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JMtheDP
Veteran
Bucky has now been with me coming up to six very quick months!
Macgregor, everybody already know of your opinion on the F35. After all, you are the originator of the whole hype here. As I said there's a lot of subjectivity involved. But to spread your OPINION as if it was the gospel and to say anybody who doesn't see it as you do just has lower standards is just preposterous and pretentious.
The F35 itself is not 5 years older than the F3. But the Genesis is. The F35 technology is basically the same as Genesis. This has been used in this very same thread to pimp the F35. But now, because it's against it, I see it already coming and people saying the F35 is no longer a "Genesis you can buy". Regardless, the majority of the components are said to be the same. It's 2005 technology! It was just that Sony couldn't start to sell it before because of their contract with Panavision.
Did I say they look the same? Hmm, I could swear I said it was a matter of trade offs. hmmm.
First, the F3 wasn't available when the F35 was released. Second, the F3 is also used in films, TV adds and TV shows, as you probably know.
And the nonsense goes on and on. Can the FS100 shoot S-log 444 with 13.5 stops of dynamic range and even resolve full HD?
Really dude. Why get hurt over a piece of equipment?
mlysbakken
Well-known member
Adam, no-one is saying the F3 isn't a good camera, and of course it all comes down to personal opinion what people choose. Personally I prefer the image out of the F35 for my work, and I think Sony and many Hollywood studios agree with me, judging by the fact that the F35 still went for crazy $$ after the F3's release. Now, that doesn't mean the F3 isn't good enough to make movies on. A skilled cinematographer makes beautiful imagery on both.
After all, they're both just tools at the end of the day.
After all, they're both just tools at the end of the day.
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
I own both the F3 and F35. So, I have no dog in justifying on over the other. I have been shooting with the F3 ever since it came out (had a very early one and was quick to the SLOG option too). Taking me while to work-out the details with the F35 and get it setup right, but it took me a while with the F3 too: 10-bit recorder, SLOG, etc.
I like the F35 look--it's simply a more pleasing image to me. (I think it's a combination of sensor characteristics and the color processing). Measured resolution is also much higher--I notice it in the details. Since I grade my own shots, I see details.
Not saying it's "better", I just like it more. I also like some of the features on F35: clean SDI out of IF box (can't screw up and leave menus on, etc), extra SDI outs (all with assignable settings each: LUT, all kinds of info settings on/off, multiple viewfinder ports, power outs of many varieties, LAN connection for settings, metal body, Assist panel (able to control from dumb side), etc. It's very apparent that it was made for a VERY different level of use than F3. Does it make it better? Yes, if you need it (or even like it).
Adam, there's no great conspiracy to hide any comparisons or findings. I simply never got to shooting them side by side. However, I can assure you that the image is quite different than the F3, and if anonymously polled, I would wager most viewers would agree and likely state it's more appealing. Watch Zacuto's shootout and look at the resolution, dead-ringer, and color comparisons and you'll see where the mojo is. (rolling shutter, is another one, which frankly I think is over-hyped, but again, no comparison.)
In the end, I saved a boatload of $$ in not going for Sony's flavor of the day (not that I will not later), but I can assure you that I'll be looking F65 before F5/55. :grin:
I like the F35 look--it's simply a more pleasing image to me. (I think it's a combination of sensor characteristics and the color processing). Measured resolution is also much higher--I notice it in the details. Since I grade my own shots, I see details.
Not saying it's "better", I just like it more. I also like some of the features on F35: clean SDI out of IF box (can't screw up and leave menus on, etc), extra SDI outs (all with assignable settings each: LUT, all kinds of info settings on/off, multiple viewfinder ports, power outs of many varieties, LAN connection for settings, metal body, Assist panel (able to control from dumb side), etc. It's very apparent that it was made for a VERY different level of use than F3. Does it make it better? Yes, if you need it (or even like it).
Adam, there's no great conspiracy to hide any comparisons or findings. I simply never got to shooting them side by side. However, I can assure you that the image is quite different than the F3, and if anonymously polled, I would wager most viewers would agree and likely state it's more appealing. Watch Zacuto's shootout and look at the resolution, dead-ringer, and color comparisons and you'll see where the mojo is. (rolling shutter, is another one, which frankly I think is over-hyped, but again, no comparison.)
In the end, I saved a boatload of $$ in not going for Sony's flavor of the day (not that I will not later), but I can assure you that I'll be looking F65 before F5/55. :grin:
eddavid
Carbonite Member
I just shot for a feature doc with the f35 - aja 12 bit multiplexer to PIX 240 - holy goddamn crap the ability to modify the luminansce in post and color is unbelievable. Will try to see if we can get SD to get the pix to record up to 110 IRE - but in the end - gosh darn it.
I own 2 F3s. Now I own the F35. I will always pick the f35 on a job over the f3. How it handles light, how it handles sharpness, how it handles color is so much better.
And I'm throwing out my reds
Oh Adamsenoj - I will ask it again - can you send us samples of your work and even your real name?
here is my work - http://www.kittyguerrilla.com
and here is my real name - Ed David
I am so curious to find out more who you are.
You love to rile up feathers.
I own 2 F3s. Now I own the F35. I will always pick the f35 on a job over the f3. How it handles light, how it handles sharpness, how it handles color is so much better.
And I'm throwing out my reds
Oh Adamsenoj - I will ask it again - can you send us samples of your work and even your real name?
here is my work - http://www.kittyguerrilla.com
and here is my real name - Ed David
I am so curious to find out more who you are.
You love to rile up feathers.
Sparky874
Well-known member
Hello everyone. Picked up an F35 a couple of weeks ago but have been too busy shooting away with my regular work to get to play with it - until this afternoon! Here is my first trial. There is some strange 'Zebra' type patterning on some of the highlights on some shots, the Samurai was connected to the HDSDI 2 port - so I need to find out whats happening here. But my first F35 step has now been taken. The password for the video is: F35 Best, Sparky
JMtheDP
Veteran
Hi Sparky,
Welcome to the family
I am afraid you may get a little bit of flak on this one, you've commited a classic school-boy error there
The camera's "monitor" outputs can have any number of things on them, markers, viewfinder info, LUTs, ZEBRAS.... or they can be a clean feed. The camera's interface box will ONLY output a clean feed - so use that for your recording device and it'll avoid this sort of thing happening.
Fortunately this is what testing is for
To turn these things off, go into the menu (can't remember which menu, I think it's operation). You'll need the proper menus, not the user menu. To activate those, click in the menu wheel and while it is held down press the VF Menu button. That'll activate the menu proper. They navigate like any pro Sony menu.
Enjoy
(PS What lenses?)
Welcome to the family
I am afraid you may get a little bit of flak on this one, you've commited a classic school-boy error there
The camera's "monitor" outputs can have any number of things on them, markers, viewfinder info, LUTs, ZEBRAS.... or they can be a clean feed. The camera's interface box will ONLY output a clean feed - so use that for your recording device and it'll avoid this sort of thing happening.
Fortunately this is what testing is for
To turn these things off, go into the menu (can't remember which menu, I think it's operation). You'll need the proper menus, not the user menu. To activate those, click in the menu wheel and while it is held down press the VF Menu button. That'll activate the menu proper. They navigate like any pro Sony menu.
Enjoy
(PS What lenses?)
bill totolo
Veteran
Wow, those are some great looking skin tones.
Did you shoot SLog, or perform any kind of color grade?
Did you shoot SLog, or perform any kind of color grade?
macgregor
Veteran
Turn the shutter ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnn
