Jonathan/Stephen - What editing solution do you use?
- Thread starter jdv
- Start date
stephenlnoe
Well-known member
John,
I'm on Liquid and now it works in all flavors of ProHD natively. If you're editing for film it will capture the 720p24 in at native 23.98 keeping audio in sync for your film sequence. Also it supports the 24p timecode so you can do your offline and rebuild your EDL by doing batch capture or handling the files via Liquid's media mangement database.
720p30 ingest edit and export to progressive DVD with excellent quality and menu creation right on the timeline. It's really a great marriage and the BR50 deck works via RS422 and/or Firewire if you wish. The timeline is rendered (if needed) in uncompressed 2VUY (8 bit) so you're dealing with I frame and 16 bit subpixel color correction.
Dolby 5.1 surround is created on the timeline and encoded to AC3 for your DVD's. The Surround uses Direct Sound so your Surround tracks are laid directly on the 5.1 discrete channels for realtime 5.1 mixing. There are too many features to list but some that are really stellar are the Commotion plugins, VST audio plugs, RT preview to HDTV or SDTV/Monitor and a LOT of other goodies.
I was going to bring in an editing station to the next ProHD user group meeting. There were alot of questions about how to edit ProHD. I've been the flag bearer about workflow with ProHD from the beginning and have it figured out from most angles. Let me know if you'd like to get together on workflow.
Take care John
I'm on Liquid and now it works in all flavors of ProHD natively. If you're editing for film it will capture the 720p24 in at native 23.98 keeping audio in sync for your film sequence. Also it supports the 24p timecode so you can do your offline and rebuild your EDL by doing batch capture or handling the files via Liquid's media mangement database.
720p30 ingest edit and export to progressive DVD with excellent quality and menu creation right on the timeline. It's really a great marriage and the BR50 deck works via RS422 and/or Firewire if you wish. The timeline is rendered (if needed) in uncompressed 2VUY (8 bit) so you're dealing with I frame and 16 bit subpixel color correction.
Dolby 5.1 surround is created on the timeline and encoded to AC3 for your DVD's. The Surround uses Direct Sound so your Surround tracks are laid directly on the 5.1 discrete channels for realtime 5.1 mixing. There are too many features to list but some that are really stellar are the Commotion plugins, VST audio plugs, RT preview to HDTV or SDTV/Monitor and a LOT of other goodies.
I was going to bring in an editing station to the next ProHD user group meeting. There were alot of questions about how to edit ProHD. I've been the flag bearer about workflow with ProHD from the beginning and have it figured out from most angles. Let me know if you'd like to get together on workflow.
Take care John
jlames
Well-known member
I think you have to look at the history of NLE to see what's going on. I have to echo Stephen's statements and agree with them without exception but I also have to look to Adobe since they came out with multi-cam and HD support in Pro2. They've come a long way since 1.5 when it was rightly considered a home movie NLE.
Remember, prior to the 1980s, the industry relied on traditional "cutting" type editing which physically cut film destroying frames before and after the cut to achieve the desired result. In fact, the first NLE wasn't really an NLE at all. It was more a series of clankety VTRs set up in a switcher type of system called an Edit Droid built by of all people George Lucas' R&D team. There were also the Ediflex, Montage Picture Processor and the Bell&Howell TouhVision, all of which were not NLE at all but analog/electronic devices that allowed for sequential processing. The bottom line here is that it's been a long and winding road that ended up with Aivd the industry leader for many years until FCP finally got a foot hold...and even then, there remained a separation between feature film and television with feature people feeling that NLE took out the "touch and feel" of editing and therefore was no good and only usable for sell-outs who were television people.
The point of all of this is to illustrate the fact that acceptance has been a long time in coming for both FCP and Premiere and while I agree with Stephen, Avid is a great system, I still like Adobe even tough people are still saying it's a home movie system. In short, Avid was the first and now still considered the de facto standard by purists when Adobe and FCP are every bit as good.
For us, Adobe is so tightly integrated with other absolutely necessary parts of the puzzle that we'd be silly not to use Adobe. After Effects is absolutely top notch and with the advent of Photoshop CS, we can go from camera to can in a fraction of the time because our people are working concurrently instead of sequentially and Adobe allows us to do that. But then again we do everything, except sound, in-house and even sound is changing. Post houses have historically, since the 80s in TV, been Avid . In 1984, 80% of prime time TV was shot on film and 20% on videotape. Of the 80%, all but one, Fame LA, was edited on film and that's because the show's editor was so ahead of his time it was ridiculous. By 1989, thinking reversed itself and all but one show, Murder She Wrote, was edited on the NLE. In a very short time, the TV industry switched from cut film to NLE post because of the indisputable benefit, especially in terms of money.
But this discussion is food for another day. Suffice to say that Avid was savvy enough to move in and capture the market early on and though companies like Lightwave and Media 100 were arguably just as good, they didn't stand a chance against marketing powerhouse Avid. And it's been that way until recently when low priced Canon XL-1s and 2s made their way onto the scene and opened the door to independent producers who couldn't afford Avid's price. Enter Adobe premiere 1.0 - 1.5 and finally, a serious contender, Final Cut Pro. All of a sudden, there was a serious threat to Avid's dominance and, in response, Avid came out with a lower priced solution to compete with FCP and now, with Adobe's 2.0, Premiere. It's not for me to say because i only play at editing because as a producer and creator, I know what's in my head and resort to editing a first cut to illustrate my thinking. But I've heard alot of people say that the dummed down version of Avids flagship does virtually the same thing as the higher priced version does but at a lower price...and with much more difficulty. Again, I don't know if this is fact or fiction. I give my guys and girls what they want and since they want Adobe because of the complete integration, that's what they get and I and the distributors love the results.
Bottom line, if you're going out of house, it'such more likely that your post house will be able to accept Aid or, now, FCP. Premiere...not so much. But, if you're lucky enough to be able to do everything in-house and deliver the masters to your distributor in a can so to speak, I believe Premiere's 2.x is every bit a good, mostly because of the growth it HAD to do to compete against Avid and FCP and because of the integration it has with every other post product we use. In the end, use what you know and are comfortable with. As I've said before, I can't remember the last time I heard someone in the audience say, "You know, it looks like he cut that with an Avid system. I'da gone with FCP or maybe Premiere." If you evoke the feeling you're trying for, you win.
Remember, prior to the 1980s, the industry relied on traditional "cutting" type editing which physically cut film destroying frames before and after the cut to achieve the desired result. In fact, the first NLE wasn't really an NLE at all. It was more a series of clankety VTRs set up in a switcher type of system called an Edit Droid built by of all people George Lucas' R&D team. There were also the Ediflex, Montage Picture Processor and the Bell&Howell TouhVision, all of which were not NLE at all but analog/electronic devices that allowed for sequential processing. The bottom line here is that it's been a long and winding road that ended up with Aivd the industry leader for many years until FCP finally got a foot hold...and even then, there remained a separation between feature film and television with feature people feeling that NLE took out the "touch and feel" of editing and therefore was no good and only usable for sell-outs who were television people.
The point of all of this is to illustrate the fact that acceptance has been a long time in coming for both FCP and Premiere and while I agree with Stephen, Avid is a great system, I still like Adobe even tough people are still saying it's a home movie system. In short, Avid was the first and now still considered the de facto standard by purists when Adobe and FCP are every bit as good.
For us, Adobe is so tightly integrated with other absolutely necessary parts of the puzzle that we'd be silly not to use Adobe. After Effects is absolutely top notch and with the advent of Photoshop CS, we can go from camera to can in a fraction of the time because our people are working concurrently instead of sequentially and Adobe allows us to do that. But then again we do everything, except sound, in-house and even sound is changing. Post houses have historically, since the 80s in TV, been Avid . In 1984, 80% of prime time TV was shot on film and 20% on videotape. Of the 80%, all but one, Fame LA, was edited on film and that's because the show's editor was so ahead of his time it was ridiculous. By 1989, thinking reversed itself and all but one show, Murder She Wrote, was edited on the NLE. In a very short time, the TV industry switched from cut film to NLE post because of the indisputable benefit, especially in terms of money.
But this discussion is food for another day. Suffice to say that Avid was savvy enough to move in and capture the market early on and though companies like Lightwave and Media 100 were arguably just as good, they didn't stand a chance against marketing powerhouse Avid. And it's been that way until recently when low priced Canon XL-1s and 2s made their way onto the scene and opened the door to independent producers who couldn't afford Avid's price. Enter Adobe premiere 1.0 - 1.5 and finally, a serious contender, Final Cut Pro. All of a sudden, there was a serious threat to Avid's dominance and, in response, Avid came out with a lower priced solution to compete with FCP and now, with Adobe's 2.0, Premiere. It's not for me to say because i only play at editing because as a producer and creator, I know what's in my head and resort to editing a first cut to illustrate my thinking. But I've heard alot of people say that the dummed down version of Avids flagship does virtually the same thing as the higher priced version does but at a lower price...and with much more difficulty. Again, I don't know if this is fact or fiction. I give my guys and girls what they want and since they want Adobe because of the complete integration, that's what they get and I and the distributors love the results.
Bottom line, if you're going out of house, it'such more likely that your post house will be able to accept Aid or, now, FCP. Premiere...not so much. But, if you're lucky enough to be able to do everything in-house and deliver the masters to your distributor in a can so to speak, I believe Premiere's 2.x is every bit a good, mostly because of the growth it HAD to do to compete against Avid and FCP and because of the integration it has with every other post product we use. In the end, use what you know and are comfortable with. As I've said before, I can't remember the last time I heard someone in the audience say, "You know, it looks like he cut that with an Avid system. I'da gone with FCP or maybe Premiere." If you evoke the feeling you're trying for, you win.
filmguy1974
Member
jdv said:
I'm an Avid guy, myself- but, unfortunately, Avid HD doesn't support 24p ProHD capture at this time. You can work in 30p no problem.
As far as I know, Premier Pro 2 (with Cineform's Aspect HD 4.0) Edius, and Liquid are the only post solutions for the PC platform that let you work in 24p ProHD.
If you plan to work in 24p, I'd take a look at Premier Pro 2 with Cineform- it's very full featured and appears to be running very stable for most users. Liquid is a fine choice as well- but I don't have any hands-on experience with it using ProHD stuff as of yet.
If you're going to be working exclusively in 30p for now, and can wait a few months for Avid to add support for 24p ProHD, then I'd have to recommend Avid. I think it still has the best editing interface out there- but that's just a personal preference, I guess.
stephenlnoe
Well-known member
John,jdv said:
Liquid will allow you to capture 24p and edit directly for film out (albeit in 8 bit). The 8 bit is not a bad thing though because at worst case scenario your only second generation and for the most part you're first generation uncompressed TGA will be camera fresh and unaltered. Liquid will capture the native m2t stream at 23.98 and sit on the timeline as 720p23.98 (audio in sync) native/uncompressed and then export uncompressed TGA sequence for your transfer house on PC formatted USB2 drive. The audio is exported as elemetary stream(s) and given as wav along with the sequence. It is really easy to filmout from the HD-100 using Liquid now that 24p capture and timecode are supported. It's a dream come true for me because now ProHD can be edited for almost any delivery format from one app. Excellent..
On the Premiere side of the world, I'm not sure what there end to end solution includes. I still have Premiere on a station but it hasn't seen much use lately since ProHD came along and it's such a good marriage with Avid Liquid. That being said, I know that Cinforms plugin for Premiere offers some good aspects to it's workflow. Mainly the 10bit, however the acquired 10 bit is already second generation to start with. Anyway it is good as well and if you're already editing on Premiere then I think Cineform is a good solution for you to get up and running right away and not have to learn a new NLE.
best,
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stephenlnoe
Well-known member
Now that BorisFX has Media 100 it makes me wonder what (if anything) is next for Media 100. I don't know. I've asked that question specifically on Cow and got no answer.jdv said:Stephen -
Boy, things sure have come a long way since the media 100 came out 10 years ago
Thanks for the imput,
John
You know, I still love the Media 100, but the company was just terribly run, and once FCP really took off, that was the last nail in the coffin (Media 100 wanted crazy money to upgrade to firewire, when you could have to 'whole thing' from FCP for a grand).
I'll always have a place in my heart for the Media 100 - but I wouldn't trust to invest in them anytime soon (but, as you say, perhaps Borris can pull off a miracle). Seems more and more I'm leaning towards buying the Adobe/Premier Pro bundle...
John
I'll always have a place in my heart for the Media 100 - but I wouldn't trust to invest in them anytime soon (but, as you say, perhaps Borris can pull off a miracle). Seems more and more I'm leaning towards buying the Adobe/Premier Pro bundle...
John
jlames
Well-known member
We're finishing our first show with the Cineform / Premiere Pro 2 combo and I have to tell you the results are spectacular, especially with the integration of After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator. I have Adobes guys in studio tomorrow and I'll post anything new I hear in the Premiere Forum. I'll also give all of you a heads up here in this forum if there's anything of note to comment on and direct you over to the post in the Premiere forum. You just have to love the way Jared has this site set up. I know everyone squawks about DVInfo and its a good site but DVXuser just feels more like a home and not merely an info central.
heartajack
Member
Anything on the mac that will let you log 24p footage and batch capture it? It doesn't seem like Lumiere or HDVxDV do it. Am I wrong in this?
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
Our HD100 arrived last week, many thanks to Stephen Noe and other users in this forum for sharing inputs in making our decision to purchase it, We currently have 5 workstations running on EDIUS and the latest 3.6 version supports 24P of the HD100. It can capture the m2t file to your PC via firewire, albeit it chops them into different files everytime it encounters a cut in the recording. Edius in its latest version is a robust, fast editing solution, EVEN though your using the software only. Edius NX for HDV is the card for outputting HD component signal. We also have 1 workstation running Premier Pro 2.0 and it only works in 30P BUT it can capture the HD100 24P footage via firewire by adding a 232 pulldown.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
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jlames
Well-known member
TB- Premiere does the same thing when it encounters a split in Batch Capture but not in manual which is rather a pain when we give it the TC numbers and say "Go to it." Our sets always roll on "Cameras" so there's about 3 sec run before the action we want to film so it's not a big worry BUT with inexperienced talent who want to get up as soon as THEY think the scene's over, especially in interviews, its a drag. Just remember to leave some lead and drag time on the front and back ends of your footage and record the TC correctly. That usually fixes the problem of intersection cuts. Kind of obvious and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts as my grandmother would say...BTW 101 today Happy B-day GM... that some people starting out wouldn't know that. Amother reason this Board is so great; the populous stretches from people who have forgotten more tha I'l ever know down to the first time pro or prosumer buyer.
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
Premier pro 2.0 has presets to edit in HDV30P and 24P,while not in the preset, can be placed on the timeline with a pulldown. Upon capturing 24p footage, premier places a pulldown, you check this in an option in the capture dialog box.
Premier 1.5 captures and plays 30P just fine. Its the 24P that it screws up.
Premier 1.5 captures and plays 30P just fine. Its the 24P that it screws up.
filmguy1974
Member
heartajack said:
For the time being, you're correct. FCP should be updating with fully integrated 720 24p support in it's next major release, though. If you're on a Mac, you'll either have to wait for that, or wait for Avid HD to arrive for the Mac platform in the summer.
Question..?
Is it possible and sensfull to downconvert a hd signal with canopus or an other software to a sd signal and than edit the downconverted material with final cut?
The editor I work with is so much used to FC that he won't change...
I shoot with jvc 101, 720p and 25 p/s. 25 because I'm from oversea..
Or does anybody know when FC will support the JVC GY HD101 Camera?
Is it possible and sensfull to downconvert a hd signal with canopus or an other software to a sd signal and than edit the downconverted material with final cut?
The editor I work with is so much used to FC that he won't change...
I shoot with jvc 101, 720p and 25 p/s. 25 because I'm from oversea..
Or does anybody know when FC will support the JVC GY HD101 Camera?
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
Canopus Edius can mix HD or SD footage on the timeline. It is possible to launch an SD preset in edius. Import an HD footage into the timeline. Print out to tape in SD DV format for your editor to work with.
would it be possible with edius to keep the material digital? I mean with that, that you downconvert the hd signal to sd, but instead to print it out on tape, to print it on a harddisk in a format that you can import with final cut. That would be great, because you could avoid to go back to tape and import it from tape again...(data loss)