Jittery 24P Footage

cineman

cineman

New member
Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum, and I have a question. I've looked around, but I haven't found any other threads on this subject, however, if there is one, I'd be happy to be redirected to it.

My question is this: I normally edit in Vegas. When I film in 24p, and edit the footage, it all looks great while I'm editing it, but for some reason, once I render it into an avi, mpg, etc. the video seems to be jittery in spots, especially when there is a pan or a lot of motion. It almost looks like a slow shutter effect or something, but I have applied no effects. When I export, I export in 23.976 3-2 pulldown, so I'm not sure what the problem could be.

Here <-- is a link to an example. It is in .wmv format. If you watch this video, you can see it the most when the girl runs out of the music shop, and when she is walking down the street after that. (about 1:00 - 1:30)

Here <-- is another example. Just click on the "Play Movie" link. It is not so severe in this one, but still noticeable in some shots.

Anyway, I don't know what could be causing this. If anyone can offer any advice, I'd be very greatful. Thanks a lot! This is a wonderful forum, with a lot of great people!

Joe
 
Strobing...just like film when shooting at 24p. When panning, an object can't cross the screen faster than 7 seconds. Do a site search here, I'm sure you'll find the answer.
 
Stepping frame-by frame, the issue isn't 24p strobing. There's some ghosting on some of the moving objects which is indicative of de-interlacing, which in an all-24p project and export, you shouldn't see.

Did you edit on a 24p timeline?

Are you sure you shot in 24p?

You say you export as 23.976 with 3-2 pulldown, but that option is not available with .wmv. What steps did you take to export?

This is letterboxed -- did you shoot widescreen and export as letterboxed?
 
David Jimerson said:
Stepping frame-by frame, the issue isn't 24p strobing. There's some ghosting on some of the moving objects which is indicative of de-interlacing, which in an all-24p project and export, you shouldn't see.

Did you edit on a 24p timeline?

Are you sure you shot in 24p?

You say you export as 23.976 with 3-2 pulldown, but that option is not available with .wmv. What steps did you take to export?

This is letterboxed -- did you shoot widescreen and export as letterboxed?
Click to expand...

Thanks for replying! Yes, I did shoot in 24p, and I edited it with Vegas 6.0 in a 24p timeline. You're right about the 3-2 pulldown for wmv's, but in vegas, in the render options I chose 23.976 as the framerate.

As for the widescreen, I used the anamorphic lens adapter, and then I had to convert each video clip to widescreen in the program. Could this be causing the problem? Thanks for the help!
 
Well, I don't know -- what did you do to "convert" them? Did you render them in some way?

What you SHOULD do is go into each clip and change the pixel aspect ratio to 1.21.
 
Did you shoot in 24Pa or 24P? If 24P you should edit in a 29.97 timeline. No point editing in 24 timeline. Remember that the camera actually records at 29.97, whether you shoot 24Pa or 24P. Only if you shoot 24Pa and capture using 'remove advance pulldown' will you have true 24 fps footage.
 
With Vegas, it does not matter which way you shoot. It handles both pulldown schemes the same.

There is no pulldown removal at capture; only on a 24p timeline.
 
gregorybennett said:
Did you shoot in 24Pa or 24P? If 24P you should edit in a 29.97 timeline. No point editing in 24 timeline. Remember that the camera actually records at 29.97, whether you shoot 24Pa or 24P. Only if you shoot 24Pa and capture using 'remove advance pulldown' will you have true 24 fps footage.
Click to expand...

Thanks again, everyone.

To David: Yes, I changed every clips aspect ratio to 1.21 after shooting with the anamorphic lens adapter, but with the camera settings on full screen.

To Gregory: I shot in 24P. Maybe that is the problem then, because I normally shoot 24P and then edit in a 24P timeline. So if I edit in a 29.97 timeline, do I still render it as 24P 3-2 pulldown? I mean, assuming I'm not going to be bringing the footage back onto the timeline, but just to render it to MPEG2 for DVD. What about for the Web? I also have had problems with blurriness/ghosting, and reduced quality when editing a scene in Adobe After Effects, and then bringing it back into Vegas to add to the movie.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.
 
I ran into this same problem in premiere pro 1.5. Very few people tell you that if you shoot 24p, you edit in a 30i(60i) timeline. If you shoot 24pa then you go into a 24frame timeline. For a couple days I was freaking out because my footage looked incrediblky terrible just frames were taken out, because I was shooting 24p and editing in a 24 frame timeline. Something that people on here told me to do. The only time you go 24 frame time line is with 24pa.
 
renegadewill said:
I ran into this same problem in premiere pro 1.5.
Click to expand...

Premiere Pro 1.5 had a known bug which made a mess of standard pulldown. Vegas doesn't have that problem.

Having shot in 24p standard will not have caused the problem here, with Vegas.

Very few people tell you that if you shoot 24p, you edit in a 30i(60i) timeline. If you shoot 24pa then you go into a 24frame timeline.
Click to expand...

Actually, that's one of the mantras here.

There's also a simple way of deciding which way to shoot:

If you're planning to edit in 24p, shoot 24pA.

If you're planning to edit in 60i (29.97), shoot 24p standard.

And if you have 24p footage, edit in 24p, no matter what your intended outcome is. It's not just for film-out or DVD.


For a couple days I was freaking out because my footage looked incrediblky terrible just frames were taken out, because I was shooting 24p and editing in a 24 frame timeline. Something that people on here told me to do. The only time you go 24 frame time line is with 24pa.
Click to expand...

For some editing apps (FCP, Avid), that is true. But Vegas can handle either type of pulldown on a 24p timeline with no problem whatsoever. (Premiere Pro 2.0 and later can, too.)

So the problem here isn't because of 24p pulldown, standard or advanced.

Again, I need to know what steps were taken to create these WMVs in order to get to the bottom of it.
 
i edit all my 24p shot footage in a 29.97 timeline. That's the way it's recorded to tape.

think of it as a 24fps film transferred to 29.97 video. this is all happening in the camera. the front end of the camera shoots 24fps - the back end of the camera records it to tape as 29.97. it's all for the 24p look which is retained on the 29.97 recording.

is there any reason you need true 24fps video? remember...all video equipment is 29.97.
 
You should always edit in the timebase of your footage.

Yes, people used to edit 24p fps film telecine as 29.97 all the time, because that was the only option available, but it's just not necessary anymore and you're better off editing as 24p -- you'll have frame-accurate editing and you'll still be able to output as 29.97 if you want.

You need 24p if you want to make a 24p DVD, which is quite desirable -- more content available per disc (file sizes are 20% smaller), no interlace artifacts on progressive displays, and ANY DVD player can play it.

But more than that, if you're using 24p footage, it has a 23.976 timebase and the footage moves accordingly, If you edit in 29.97 and add anything -- text, animation, moving picture-in-picture, etc., it's going to move at 29.97 (actually, 59.94) and the motion can clash badly against the underlying 23.976 footage. (I've seen WAAAAAY too many local commercials where exactly this was the case.) In other words, anything you add will NOT have a 24p "look." It will look like video.

Also a consideration -- something like a fade, when you're on a 29.97 timeline, will have 2.5 times as many "steps" as the footage. You can end up with really stroby or choppy fades, because the fade's timing doesn't match the footage's.

You also want 24p for a film-out, but that's not too much of a consideration for most people.

Keep in mind, if you're editing as 29.97, you've got all these added fields that you didn't shoot affecting the edit. Wouldn't you rather deal with the frames you shot rather the fields someone shoehorned in?
 
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