Jello

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Primaural

Member
OK, now I'm driving myself nuts. Here's the thing. I was completely ready to drop $10k on a 5D Mark II and some nice lenses, for a film project I want to shoot in Stockholm this summer.

I was aware of the focusing issues (ok, since I wasn't planning to shoot at F1.2 anyway) and I think I could have handled them.

But what I'm really scared of is this rolling shutter.

What I'm trying to learn is, why is it SOOOOO prominent on some videos I see on Vimeo, like, literally liquid sloshing around, I could never live with it. And sometimes, it's fine, and I can't even see it.

I want to shoot handheld for this project, but I'd have some support like a Zacuto or something. But man, I'm worried that I can't avoid it.

So my question, is it really related to shutter speed? If I lock off my shutter speed at 1/50 for 24fps, will I be able to minimize it, or is handheld on the 5D Mark II just too risky?
 
The 5DMkII has some of the least rolling shutters prominant. Believe me, you haven't seen rolling shutter until you've owned a Nikon D90/D5000. It's as bad as my Nokia 5800 phone, but you know, I learned to love it and deal with it.

Lowering the shutter speed and keeping shutter at 1/50th will make it less noticable, definately as motion blur disguises the wibbley wobberly.

The best way would simply be to weigh the camera down to avoid the micro-jitters (which contribute more to the rolling shutter than anything else) and to avoid whip panning like a Paul Greengrass film.
 
Primaural said:
So my question, is it really related to shutter speed?
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No, it shouldn't be. The rolling shutter skew is because of the read-refresh rate, which should be independent of shutter speed. However, some users have found that certain shutter speeds (like 1/50, I think) minimize the appearance of jello. The same amount of skew is there, just less noticeable.
 
Thanks, I'm beginning to understand it. It's a shame, I know it can be made to work well, but now I'm second guessing it for my purpose, which was to shoot a very 'hand-held' looking film. Not a lot of fast panning and stuff, but still, mostly all without tripods, and I'm seriously wondering if I can pull it off.

I sure wish it was a CCD instead of a CMOS in this camera!

I've seen some stuff using a Zacuto that looked OK, so hopefully if I went that route, I could pull it off OK.

But such a bummer that the CMOS has this problem, thanks for all the input.

Tim
 
Primaural said:
So my question, is it really related to shutter speed?
Click to expand...

No.


Primaural said:
If I lock off my shutter speed at 1/50 for 24fps, will I be able to minimize it . . .
Click to expand...

No.


Primaural said:
or is handheld on the 5D Mark II just too risky?
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No, handheld is fine, like all other aspects of photography/filmmaking (anything!) it takes a little practice/skill. If you go for it like your brother in law at a wedding with his £200 video camera, 'hosing' the scene, you will come home with a load of crap, but carefully shot and well handled camera work will look great, 'Jello' should not be a great concern.

Bear in mind the RED1 also has a rolling shutter (and 'jello') albeit less that the 5D, but the 5D is not too bad at all in this respect, much much better than many cameras out there.

Image stabilized lens really help with handheld stuff, much more than you might suspect, it's really quite surprising just how well they tame 'Jello' whilst still allowing you that handheld look. But I find it fairly easy to shoot handheld even without an IS lens.

And finally for those shots where you think you can see some 'Jello' creeping in, there is a plug-in from the foundry that is very effective at removing 'Jello':

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/pkg_overview.aspx?ui=47C4AB50-4636-4326-87D1-FB380B2119EF

Good luck, you seem to be more worried about this than the problem warrants, it really is not such an issue unless you are throwing your camera around in every shot.
 
Thanks. I really only became worried about it after seeing it in so many videos, and not even ones where people who posted them were aware or commenting on it. Searching Vimeo for 5D Mark II shows lots of examples where this Jello as we're calling it, is readily apparent. Maybe my eye is really sensitive to it.

For instance in the Der Vater short (thanks for sharing) the effect I'm taking about, I clearly see it, even in that. It actually gives me a slight headache to watch it, it's almost like I get seasick when watching that short, there is something 'wrong' with the motion to my eye.

It's not nearly as prominent as some others that I have seen, who knows, maybe I'm seeing two different things. But I still think I see some 'skew' in that short film on many of the shots, even though it's not horrible, it still affects the motion to me in a very unpleasant way somehow.
 
Primaural said:
For instance in the Der Vater short (thanks for sharing) the effect I'm taking about, I clearly see it, even in that. It actually gives me a slight headache to watch it, it's almost like I get seasick when watching that short, there is something 'wrong' with the motion to my eye.

It's not nearly as prominent as some others that I have seen, who knows, maybe I'm seeing two different things. But I still think I see some 'skew' in that short film on many of the shots, even though it's not horrible, it still affects the motion to me in a very unpleasant way somehow.
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My eyes are very sensitive to jello as well, and I can also see it in some of the shots of "Der Vater." But to me, it's hardly offensive and fairly subtle, not nearly as bad as it could be. Most people don't even notice it, at least not until it's pointed out to them.

Part of the problem of the "handheld" style is that it's too jittery to make for pleasant viewing. Jittery motion is certainly not natural, and it reads as "something wrong" to most people. The jello only enhances and amplifies the inherent problem.
 
I don't see jello in static shots on the 5D, or 7D or on my 550D. I definately see it in jittery motion bare handheld shots. Rigged up handheld/shoulder/supported, not so much.


Whereas on my D90, no matter how you rigged it, jello would be present. It's similar to if film would look like it's about to splurge out the loader or if it was damaged/wet in some way.

Here's a trailer for a short film I directed: http://vimeo.com/10855173 Here you can see the D90 has super jello. I'll upload some 5D and 7D and 550D stuff later when I can be arsed, but honestly I've not noticed it.

Here is a short shot ona a Pentax K-7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vez7qSrZfpc
The K-7 and D90 both have jello, that in my experience, is 5 times worse than the 5D. And I doubt you'd find a better CMOS big sensor size camera for the price range. Also if you watch Gamer, that film was shot on Red and has uber loads of rolling shutter/jelloness. It's managable depending on how you shoot and what you shoot :)
 
BandanaDan said:
I don't see jello in static shots on the 5D, or 7D or on my 550D.
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I tell a lie, I remember I shot a short near some trains moving by and trains became a slanted blur instead of a straight vertical. Looked kinda cool I thought.
 
The reason Jello is sooooo evident in DSLRs has more to do with the body size than the shutter. Yes I know the rolling shutter is the cause and it's more noticeable on DSLRs than most any other camera...but that said, Jello is most seen in the "micro-jitters" from people trying to hold the DSLR body and shoot. There's a reason camcorders have the body style they do.

Like others have said, get a good tripod and shoulder rig and you'll be fine for 95% of your shots.
 
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