Is there a difference between dramatic and eng style audio?

G

Gorilla King

Well-known member
I'm curious, is there a difference between the techniques and tools one would use for dramatic work vs. electronic news gathering or are the tools generally interchangeable? I almost exclusively record audio for small client projects but I'd like to try my hand at some short films and would just like to find out what sort of challenges I might face with that which are different from what I typically do.
 
Not necessarily in equipment, definitely in practice. I guess it depends how cinema like the ENG operator works, though. ENG can mean a lot of things.
 
It's in the practice, but the type of equipments you use also defines it. Sure you can grab your ENG kit and use that on short films. Once you hit a feature film, you've got to be ready with additional equipments in the package.

It's very similar to a band recording in a Recording Studio than in a Music festival concert. You can do as many takes as you would like in a Recording Studio, getting the perfect take with only money and time against you. In a live and hostile environment, you've only one chance to get this right. There are a lot more variables to consider when you're in a live situation. Got to be sharp or else you'll fall along with your crew. In an ENG environment, one chance and do it right.
 
Yes, and post is different also. Tools do cross over but they are often used in different ways. ENG is all about speed and portability, Narrative, usually, isn't.
 
It depends on what level you're playing at but overall
I personally find them 2 pretty different beasts.

ENG
Single system sound (only recording to camera)
1 person dept
The camera person will be more willing to compromise his shot so both sound and picture
can get what they need. (be prepared to get lit off the set on a regular basis in film)
Audio will actually help with lighting/grip work
Very little post work done on audio (compared to film)
No sound reports
Most importantly, and overall they have 2 different sets of rules (set etiquette)

Film- pretty much the opposite

Audio tool differences in film
-Need to supply more feeds (boom op, video village, director/producer/scripty)
and be able to talk to them through their headsets.
- Audio recorder/ slates
-multiple boom poles- pairs of boom mics
- Not a rule but a mixer with faders rather than pots will be way easier to mix multiple sources smoothly.


These are just broad strokes of course, and can vary
 
Suppose we were talking about small independent type films with only one person on sound. What kind of gear might be acceptable for that sort of production and how might it be used effectively?

I've already been using Oktavas for years and am very pleased with it, so that'll be a part of my one man kit. I used to have a Sennheiser ME66k, but sold it because the sound seemed very flat to me. Supposing I was wanting a fuller, warmer sound, where would I look?

To give you some idea of what I'm after, I was watching East of Eden (James Dean) last night and I loved the sound. It seemed very rich to me. What's more, with how the shots were staged, it didn't seem terribly difficult to place the mics in most instances. If I were doing films with this level of action and this sort of pacing, would it be possible to begin to approach that level of sound on a modest budget with today's technology? I'm an editor, but I work for a small company and make about as much as a school teacher, so budget is a concern for me.
 
warmer, fuller?
The recorder you are recording to has a big effect on that.
If you're recording in camera to a little hvx200 its going to sound thinner than
if you're recording to a high end audio only recorder.
It will still be fine, but not in the same league.

There are too many factors in the "warmer/fuller" comment.
Voice, mic, pre amp, signal to noise..etc, post production..etc.

If you're going to be recording to camera, just use your eng equipment
and do the best job you can to getting the mic in close and getting rid of unwanted BG noise
and use the whole process as a learning tool and you'll progressively start to get that more "pro" sound
you're thinking of.
You already figured out you dont like the sound of an me66..so you dont use it..
you'll figure that out with all the gear you have currently.
What will work for you, and what wont.
 
I used to have a Sound Devices 702, but had to sell it for financial reasons. Great recorder. I'd love another, but it's just not in my budget. I've been looking at the Marantz 661 though to have something I could use until I could upgrade later. Is this something which could reasonably be used for this kind of production? Maybe it could be paired with a Sound Devices pre amp?
 
Well a lot of "no budget" films aren't going to want to deal with double system sound anyway.
Without really showing them the process it will be over their head and in their minds a "pain".
Obviously if you can convince them thats a good thing, but
since you are not talking about any 1 production I would start building quality
around the things you will always be using.
Mic's and mixer.

Rent the recorder when you go double system.
 
I would suggest something like the Sound Devices MixPre. You go through it, and into your camera. You set the camera audio inputs to "Line", and let the mixer do the heavy lifting. With the camera set to Line you avoid the noise introduced by the cameras (usually cheaply made) preamps. A MixPre has 2 very clean channels, limiters to save you from clipping, 60db of gain, 2 levels of low-cut, phantom power, a "tape return" so you can hear what the camera is recording by running a line from the camera's headphone out. I had mine modified (150.00 from Greg Winter) so I can attach it to the bottom of my camera, and on top of the tripod. Very nice for a "one man band" approach. But if you have a person running boom you just have them strap it to their belly with something and run a combo cable (2 xlr / 1 mini for the tape return) to the camera. It runs 665.00. I think it's the best bang for your buck. The 3 channel version is 1,200.00.

Now, if you are recording HDV, your audio takes a hit right off the bat because you are recording compressed audio equivalent to 320kbps mp3. Not the case with an EX1, or any Standard def MiniDV camera. If I were recording on an HDV camera I would use a recorder of some type. I use a Rolland R4-pro that goes for 2,000.00, but there is a newer R-44 for 900.00 that records 4 channels with reasonably clean preamps.

Anyway here's my MixPre attached to my old VX2100 (I use a Sony EX1 now).

http://precisionintermedia.com/chadsVX2100pics/

Maybe start with good mics. A Rode NTG-3 shotgun for outdoor use at 550.00 (B&H) is comparable to the Senn 416 that goes for 1,000.00. For indoor boom use maybe a Rode NT3 hyper. The Octivas are nice too. And of course you can go up to the stratosphere with mic prices and better quality, but these I mentioned are not too shabby.


It's all about how far you want to go. I think it's important to get uncompressed audio (not HDV), clean preamps (no added hiss) and the best mics you can afford. Placement it very very very important too. Keep the mic within 2 feet of whomever you are booming.

Chadfish
 
Well I do know that I will be running double system audio, but I do have a question. If I'm running a Mix Pre via line input into a Marantz 661, how would this differ from running it into a Sound Devices 702? Would the difference be marginal by most ears?
 
The NT3 (Not to be confused with the NTG-3) is awfully heavy (almost a pound) to be swinging on a boom for any length of time. There are a ton of hypercardioids out there better suited to boom use.
 
JordanBlock said:
The NT3 (Not to be confused with the NTG-3) is awfully heavy (almost a pound) to be swinging on a boom for any length of time. There are a ton of hypercardioids out there better suited to boom use.
Click to expand...

Can you name some? I'm open to better solutions. The NT3 goes for 260.00, but was 200.00 when I bought the two I have. I would love to find something that matches it's quality or betters it at a reasonable price.
 
Gorilla King said:
Well I do know that I will be running double system audio, but I do have a question. If I'm running a Mix Pre via line input into a Marantz 661, how would this differ from running it into a Sound Devices 702? Would the difference be marginal by most ears?
Click to expand...

The MixPre has 2 XLR line outs, and one stereo mini line out. Of course I would choose the XLR outs for the main audio, and the mini line out for backup. How it sounds in the recorder depends on the recorder.
 
Gorilla King said:
Well I do know that I will be running double system audio, but I do have a question. If I'm running a Mix Pre via line input into a Marantz 661, how would this differ from running it into a Sound Devices 702? Would the difference be marginal by most ears?
Click to expand...

This is just personal opinion and I haven't heard the differences personally...

The only way I think it'd be worth an upgrade is if you went up to a 702T to add timecode ability into the mix.

Plus some features like being able to go upto 192kHz (mostly just to give more options when processing the sound before you start distorting), fewer devices to carry, ability to record to flash and external HDD at the same time, and a higher quality headphone amp.
 
I'm not saying the NT3 is a bad mic. I just never want to see one at the end of my boom again. I'd take an Oktava over the NT3. Even with the BBG to quiet it down it's still less than half the weight of the NT3.

$250 is a very low price point for hyper/super cardioids, I'm not really clear why you're limiting the options to the bottom end of the scale.

At that price point, you'll mostly find mics marketed as drum overheads, mics like Sennheiser's E614 and Shure's Beta 98.

Audix has a pretty wide assortment of small condensors in the $350 range.

There are also plain old cardioid mics from various companies that give surprising bang-for-buck if you want to stay at the super-cheap end of the spectrum. There was a thread about some CAD mics a while back, for example.

Best budget hyper I'd suggest is AKG's blue line, the hyper capsule with power unit is under $500. A modular system is a great way to cut down on costs.
 
With regards to hypercardiods, my plan is to use the Oktava and learn on it and the next step will be a Schoeps or two maybe in a few years.
 
JordanBlock said:
Best budget hyper I'd suggest is AKG's blue line, the hyper capsule with power unit is under $500. A modular system is a great way to cut down on costs.
Click to expand...

I'm not necessarily trying to stay in the super cheap range of mics, I just like the quality of audio I get with the NT3. The weight doesn't bother me. I looked at that AKG blue line, and it looks pretty cool. I have never heard of those. I'll have to read some reviews, as I have no mics to try in my area. I realize one can get amazing mics for 1,500.00, but I would like to find a quality hyper in the 500 - 700.00 range. Something that is a definite step up in sound quality without breaking the bank. Usually when guys are on these forums asking "What kind if mic should I get to make movies" they don't own any mics, and usually don't have any budget, so I suggest the NT3 because I don't think you can beat it for price/quality ratio. I could be wrong. If I am I want to know what that mic is so I can get one.

In the mean time I am looking for something I want to keep. If I find something that works I don't let a few hundred more dollars stop me from getting it. My budget is in shock right now because I just dropped 7 grand on a Sony EX1 with a few extras. So 1,000.00 mics are not on the menu for the immediate future, but who knows?
 
Gorilla King said:
Well I do know that I will be running double system audio, but I do have a question. If I'm running a Mix Pre via line input into a Marantz 661, how would this differ from running it into a Sound Devices 702? Would the difference be marginal by most ears?
Click to expand...

The biggest difference is that you would only be using one device with the 702.
 
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