Is the HXV200 4:4:4 ?

dusterdoo

dusterdoo

Well-known member
Im a little lost with respect to 4:2:2, 4:2:0, 4:4:4, 8 bit, 10 bit, etc. I assume this camera outputs 10 bit, is this true ? If not, can the signal be uprezed to 10 bit for a film out ? Thanks in advance. .
 
None of the high-def cameras are 4:4:4 (although the HVX will be, once Juan andromedizes it!)

Here's a simple primer: 4:4:4 = 100% color resolution, but this is pretty much restricted to computer files and things like that. Practically no video format uses 4:4:4.

4:2:2 = 50% color resolution. One color sample for every two pixels. The best formats use this (DigiBeta, DV50, D5, etc). The HVX is 4:2:2, and the Canon is 4:2:2 when outputting to the HD-SDI port, but not when recording HDV.

4:2:0 and 4:1:1 = 25% color resolution. One color sample for every four pixels. HDV is 4:2:0, DV is 4:2:0 in PAL or 4:1:1 in NTSC. In 4:2:0 there's one color sample for every 2x2 block of pixels, in 4:1:1 there's one color sample for every 4x1 block of pixels.

All these under-$10,000 cameras are 8-bit, as Aza said. HDV, DV, DVCAM, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, HDCAM, they're all 8-bit formats. Only Digital Betacam is a 10-bit format.
 
I thought that after the chip stats were finally released it was determined the HVX had 4:2:0 or something. Did I read wrong? It was on the thread about resolutions etc.
 
There is some controversy over whether the 960x540 CCD's of the HVX can actually feed true 4.2.2 to the 1080 format, and to a lesser extent, 720. Do a search of Bob Diaz posts here or go over to DVInfo and read some of Steve Mullen's posts.

This is all splitting hairs stuff for engineers though. The HVX has very rich color, end of story. How it gets there and whether it really lives up to the specs marketing may be another story entirely.
 
None of the high-def cameras are 4:4:4 (although the HVX will be, once Juan andromedizes it!)
Click to expand...

Barry, you've got me thinking about how cool it would be to andromedize the HVX...

If they offered that service today, would you sacrifice your HVX to do it?
 
HELL YES. Juan, my friend, where are ya?

(actually, I don't want to sacrifice it for the experimental phase, but if the service was ready, I'd absolutely be first in line to get it done!)

There is some controversy over whether the 960x540 CCD's of the HVX can actually feed true 4.2.2 to the 1080 format
Click to expand...
Not anymore there isn't. I have hopefully put to rest any question about the legitimacy of Panasonic's claim of 4:2:2. Did some comparison testing against the HD100, and the HVX shows way higher chroma resolution. On the order of "way higher". Here's one simple example: look at the sign with the martini glass; red dress against blue liquid. On the HD100 it's blocky and steppy, on the HVX it's smooth and clean. Look at the traffic lights too; obviously way higher chroma res on the HVX.
HD100: http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/HD100-n-HVX-on-Strip/HD100-Strip-1.JPG
HVX200: http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/HD100-n-HVX-on-Strip/HVX-Strip-1.JPG
 
That's really an amazing difference. So call it what you want, the difference between the red dress in the shots is clear proof of the superior color quality of the hvx.

Look at the yellow car lights in the cars in front. On some HD100 cars you can't even distinguish the yellow at all.
 
Barry_Green said:
None of the high-def cameras are 4:4:4 (although the HVX will be, once Juan andromedizes it!)

Here's a simple primer: 4:4:4 = 100% color resolution, but this is pretty much restricted to computer files and things like that. Practically no video format uses 4:4:4.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, the only tape format that will carry 4:4:4 is HDCam SR.
 
Just out of curiosity; what kind of data stream are we talking about if you modified your HVX for Andromeda and 4:4:4? Seems like file sizes would be monsterous!

Is there a hard drive you could capture to? Would you be able to bring along a high end computer with a Xena card to capture it?

Or would you be forced to use a tape?
 
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Both cameras were wide open; the HD100 is capable of about 1/4-stop or maybe 1/3-stop more wide-open than the HVX is.

Settings were attempted to be exactly equalized between cameras, using Tim Dashwood's recipe for DVX Cine-Like D, and matching edge enhancement as per my "musings on detail level" thread.

Further discussion on that subject should probably be kept in that thread.
 
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BigMike said:
Just out of curiosity; what kind of data stream are we talking about if you modified your HVX for Andromeda and 4:4:4? Seems like file sizes would be monsterous!
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Well, actually, no, it wouldn't be all that bad. Because the HVX's CCDs aren't megapixel, the transfer rate wouldn't be enormously bad, it'd be about 1.55 megabytes per frame, or 93 megabytes per second. That's about half the data rate of regular uncompressed HD, but we're talking about 1920x1080x60p (when Juan gets through running SculptorHD on the signals of course). It'd be 729 megabits per second, which would fit within a FireWire 800 or Gigabit Ethernet data stream.

Is there a hard drive you could capture to? Would you be able to bring along a high end computer with a Xena card to capture it?
Click to expand...
You'd need a fairly healthy RAID to capture it, at least three and probably four drives. Or, maybe something like the CineForm Wafian could be modified to carry the stream.
 
we're talking about 1920x1080x60p (when Juan gets through running SculptorHD on the signals of course). It'd be 729 megabits per second, which would fit within a FireWire 800 or Gigabit Ethernet data stream.
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Okay. Sign me up!
You'd need a fairly healthy RAID to capture it, at least three and probably four drives. Or, maybe something like the CineForm Wafian could be modified to carry the stream.
Click to expand...

I'm being unconventional here as far as my RAID goes. I'm buying a G-Tech G-RAID Pro

http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-RAIDpro.cfm

A five drive, 2.5 TB RAID 3 Firewire 800 that can sustain 3 streams of DVCPRO HD. Under 4,000.00! G-Tech is the sister company to Medea, who was recently purchased by AVID. I wonder if it's fast enough for the Andromeda?

By the time Juan has it on the market, I'll have either made enough to buy a more monster array and a 2nd camera for Andromeda, or I will be happy with what I've got.
But 4:4:4 sounds SUH-WEET!
 
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FW800 will barely handle the data rate, but keep in mind: that's at 60fps. If we drop down to 24fps, the data rate comes much more under control. At 24fps we're looking at a transferred data rate of maybe 37 megabytes per second; at that rate that's 300 megabits... almost could fit within a regular firewire or USB2 stream! And a regular G-RAID should be able to sustain that transfer rate; the G-RAID is rated at I think 54 megabytes per second sustained write speed.

Of course, my math could be way off, and Juan is the only one who can give authoritative answers.
 
FW800 will barely handle the data rate, but keep in mind: that's at 60fps. If we drop down to 24fps, the data rate comes much more under control. At 24fps we're looking at a transferred data rate of maybe 37 megabytes per second; at that rate that's 300 megabits... almost could fit within a regular firewire or USB2 stream!
Click to expand...

Barry: Do you forsee a firmware update that will give us 1080 24PN? That seems like a reasonable expectation.

Then all we have to do is push our software suppliers to get it to work on their products.
 
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