Is the DVX100B obsolete?

The DVX is a great low light camera, but I guess that depends on what you mean by low light, as standards for what "low light" differs greatly. No camera looks their best in low light, cameras need light to see. So as far as which camera can see farther in low light, the DVX or any SD camera would win. However, I have found that the A1 gained up slightly looks very much like DVX footage at 0DB of gain. I would still say however that the DVX will see "more" in little to no light than the A1. As for which one actually looks better, couldn't really tell you as I never really shoot in low light situations. I have seen so pretty decent footage from both cameras in low light however.
 
There are good reasons to go with either. If you need the ability to do crash zooms a lot, the DVX's manual zoom is great. But what if you want a lot more telephoto reach, whether for simulating shallow DOF or simply getting a better shot of a bird way up in that tree in the distance? The A1 will get you that shot, in sparkling detail no less.

I think there is one consideration that is very important if you want to grow with your camera: Greenscreen.

If at some point you want to pull great keys in HD, well that's impossible with a DVX. You can get good keys even with HDV if you know how to work with intermediate codecs, but even more importantly, the A1 has uncompressed analog output that can be captured to a computer for true 4:2:2 color sampling at full raster. With a DVX, you're stuck with SD DV 4:1:1 compression no matter what. HDV can also downsample to SD resolutions with much more chroma info retained.

It's definitely something to consider if you want to make the next poor man's Sin City. :)
 
I'm not posting this to be a prick to anyone, just to back up my point before. Here are some screen grabs from a car commercial. We shot the first spot with them a few months back before I had my A1. We just went back and did another shoot with them, this time I used my A1. I looked through all the footage to find two similar shots between the cameras, and feel that this wide shot is a good example between the two cameras.
These are straight from the DV / HDV footage, no color correction. The light was different on the second shoot, but we are looking at overall image quality here, and these wide shots were not lit by studio lights, rather by natural light.

Granted Car commercials are boring and don't look cool, but at least we can see an unscientific real world comparison between the two cameras.

Again, not saying I don't like the DVX, I love it, but honestly I can't reccomend it when the A1 is in the same price range.

On to the phtos.

Here is also a link to the actual commercial shot with the A1
http://www.stefweb.net/DVX-VS-A1/MP3%202007-V5.wmv



DVX SD 16:9
DVX_1.jpg


A1 SD 16:9
A1_1.jpg


And then Just for fun.

DVX 1080P
DVX1920_1.jpg


A1-1080P
A1-full_1.jpg
 
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WOW some - how can I say this politely? Hmmm NON FACTUAL POSTS in this thread? - Doesnt sound too bad does it? I too was a a little sceptical about HDV, but I jumped on the A1, one of the first to actually get the camera as it happens. And I have to say, not only does THIS cam hold up in the world of HD, but its pushing the boundaries of some cameras security. Liked your spot by the way scharkey, but the 1080 A1 grab had been trashed a bit in the jpeg compression.

It also highlights to me a lot of the HDV rubbishing, is the result of two things. 1/ The original Sony HDV codec and 2/ internet bullplop.
 
ncje said:
Liked your spot by the way scharkey, but the 1080 A1 grab had been trashed a bit in the jpeg compression.
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No, that's what the A1 actually looks like in 24F mode.

As for the DVX SD grab, I know DV is soft compared to HD, but at SD resolution, it should still be much sharper than that. It looks like the focus is way off.

The A1 SD grab tells a big story to me. HD is a good idea, even if the intent is just to downconvert to SD, because that's some awesome SD!
 
Eastside Parkway said:
I owned two HDV cameras before I bought my DVX and I haven't looked back. HDV is an entirely unreliable format.
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I would dispute that but this whole issue of how good/bad HDV is has been discussed to death already. HDV is perfectly fine for 99% of application; it has its limitation but to say that it's "entirely unreliable" or unsuable is a huge exaggeration and gives the wrong impression.
 
Eastside Parkway said:
I owned two HDV cameras before I bought my DVX and I haven't looked back. HDV is an entirely unreliable format.
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It would be more informative to mention which cameras you used and what problems you had. Any new technology will go through a period where bugs need to be worked out. Has anyone checked out some of the DV from eigth to ten years ago? The stuff looks horrible, although it's the same DV format used today. The cameras and processing got better to deliver better images, and other bugs were worked out. The current gen of HDV cameras coming out are probably a lot better than the first gen.
 
jade8472 said:
I would dispute that but this whole issue of how good/bad HDV is has been discussed to death already. HDV is perfectly fine for 99% of application; it has its limitation but to say that it's "entirely unreliable" or unsuable is a huge exaggeration and gives the wrong impression.
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My personal experience speaks far louder than any percentage or statistic that you throw at me. Both of the cameras that I owned (A Sony A1U and a Z1U) failed on multiple levels that had nothing to do with its "limitations" and destroyed two very important projects of mine. I got rid of both of them and went back to DV (a decision that I'm very happy with) and I feel I ought to be spreading the word about the problems that plague HDV. Forgive me if you think I'm exaggerating; I don't mean to insult people who have invested in the format, but HDV caused me more pain and aggravation than I care to talk any more about, and I won't forgive it for that.
 
Hey, everyone has different experiences. But I'm curious what fatal flaw did HDV have that completely destroyed your projects? The main complaints with it has been low color space, group of frame compression and difficulty in editing, but I haven't seen anyone actually have a project ruined by it.
 
Hey
If you are shooting shorts and Docs then go with the DVX all the way.
If you are getting Paid work for HD then go the other way.
Me I'm gonna wait a year or 2 more before making the Move.
 
IMO, HDV is all ready obsolete. If you need a camera now, then buy a DVX100B. If you can, wait until the HVX becomes cheaper or the HD market matures a little bit.

It seems to me that most HDV cameras are a step backwards in regards to some of the features the DVX all ready has. No 24P so far is a huge issue. I think that's why we all bought our DVX100s in the first place.



edit: I don't know anything about the new Canons, and some people in this thread seem to like the XH-A1. I looked it up, and for the same price as a DVX, it does seem like a pretty good deal. I guess it can't really do 1080/24p, but it's close enough according to what I've read. And the fact that it can be recorded on inexpensive tapes, as opposed to the expensive P2 cards of the HVX makes it a money saver.

If you can get an HDV camera for less than the DVX then you might consider buying it, but there's no way that I would pay more. The cameras just aren't at the point where they need to be to justify the extra cost.
 
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The DVX was indeed in focus, and when viewed by itself it looks absolutly fine, but then when viewed next to the A1 it looks very much out of focus, remember this is a wide shot and DV does not hold up that great on wide shots.
As for the corners of the A1, that was a bit of the mattebox getting in the frame, I think I had the mattebox set too far forward, and the A1's lens is really wide, equal to that of the DVX.

Saying that HDV is a dead format already is just plain ignorant. I get 70% of my work right now becasue I can go after request for HD and deliver a TRUE 1080 24P Final.

Why people have such a hard time with 24P vs 24F when in all actuality they are exactly the same, just different means to the same end.

Now lets go to reliability, anyone who has spent any time on this forum will know that no capture medium is 100% reliable.

DVX: there is a current post going on right now about someone that lost the last 1/3 of the wedding they shot.

HVX: there are numerous posts of lost footage, currupt cards and FCP and Macs destroying HVX footage

HDV cameras: in general, yes there is possibility for drop out, just like with DV, but personally have not experienced one drop out. You just need to use quality tapes, keep everything working good and clean and you really don't have to worry about this stuff.

Firestore: another option for HDV DV and other HD cameras, also not 100% reliable but another option none the less.
 
scharky said:
The DVX was indeed in focus, and when viewed by itself it looks absolutly fine, but then when viewed next to the A1 it looks very much out of focus, remember this is a wide shot and DV does not hold up that great on wide shots.
As for the corners of the A1, that was a bit of the mattebox getting in the frame, I think I had the mattebox set too far forward, and the A1's lens is really wide, equal to that of the DVX.

Saying that HDV is a dead format already is just plain ignorant. I get 70% of my work right now becasue I can go after request for HD and deliver a TRUE 1080 24P Final.

Why people have such a hard time with 24P vs 24F when in all actuality they are exactly the same, just different means to the same end.

Now lets go to reliability, anyone who has spent any time on this forum will know that no capture medium is 100% reliable.

DVX: there is a current post going on right now about someone that lost the last 1/3 of the wedding they shot.

HVX: there are numerous posts of lost footage, currupt cards and FCP and Macs destroying HVX footage

HDV cameras: in general, yes there is possibility for drop out, just like with DV, but personally have not experienced one drop out. You just need to use quality tapes, keep everything working good and clean and you really don't have to worry about this stuff.

Firestore: another option for HDV DV and other HD cameras, also not 100% reliable but another option none the less.
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I don't think HDV is a bad format. It's just a format without a future. It really isn't worth it to pay extra money for a camera that will be outdated in 6 weeks, and that has all ready had to be compromised in many ways.

You might as well pay less money for a camera that is all ready outdated, but the best SD camera you can buy, and wait until the next line of HD cams come out before spending the big bucks.
 
you won't pay less money. they are the same price or very close. and that is the point.
you will be able to deliver 24p 1080 or have crisp FULL RESOLUTION 16X9 SD. The DVX cannot do full reslution 16X9 widescreen without an adaptor that puts the cost well over the A1 and cannot be used for run and gun or focusing by eye in the LCD. You can buy the A1 and have run and gun 16X9. Given the closeness of the price, that would be enough reason for me with the improved color curves and 24p on the new canon.

This is less an argument about HDV and HD. Just the A1 vs. the DVX. If you are going to pick 480 lines of 4:3 or 330 lines of 16X9 over 480 lines of 16X9 not to mention HD resolution if you want it ... then your are hung up on labels.
 
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My view on HDV is pretty simple.

You wouldn't record anything important in MPEG-2 for SD . . .

Why would you want to for HD?

But, that said, the A1 is going to kill.
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
you won't pay less money. they are the same price or very close. and that is the point.
you will be able to deliver 24p 1080 or have crisp FULL RESOLUTION 16X9 SD. The DVX cannot do full reslution 16X9 widescreen without an adaptor that puts the cost well over the A1 and cannot be used for run and gun or focusing by eye in the LCD. You can buy the A1 and have run and gun 16X9. Given the closeness of the price, that would be enough reason for me with the improved color curves and 24p on the new canon.

This is less an argument about HDV and HD. Just the A1 vs. the DVX. If you are going to pick 480 lines of 4:3 or 330 lines of 16X9 over 480 lines of 16X9 not to mention HD resolution if you want it ... then your are hung up on labels.
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I all ready said that the XH-A1 looks like a decent deal, but it's the only HDV camera so far that has looked like an okay deal. And that's only in relation to the cost of cameras like the XL-H1 or the HD110U that can't even do 1080/24p.

You can buy a new DVX100B for $2,900 after a $500 mail-in-rebate (though you can't count on the money any time soon...I know from experience), while the XH-AI is $3,500. Imagine what you can probably find a decent DVX100 or DVX100A for.

I personally would not buy a camcorder right now, because it seems like no matter what option you choose, you have to compromise in some way or another.
 
Eastside Parkway said:
My personal experience speaks far louder than any percentage or statistic that you throw at me.
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Personal experience being subjective. There is no rational debate to be found in this comment.

Eastside Parkway said:
Both of the cameras that I owned (A Sony A1U and a Z1U) failed on multiple levels that had nothing to do with its "limitations" and destroyed two very important projects of mine. I got rid of both of them and went back to DV (a decision that I'm very happy with) and I feel I ought to be spreading the word about the problems that plague HDV.
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Okay. What are these multiple levels? What are the problems that "plague" HDV. Some examples or actual proof would be nice since your "personal experience" speaks louder than any real facts, statistics, or logic. This type of rationale is akin to debating evolution with evangelicals



Eastside Parkway said:
Forgive me if you think I'm exaggerating; I don't mean to insult people who have invested in the format, but HDV caused me more pain and aggravation than I care to talk any more about, and I won't forgive it for that.
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I forgive you, but your stance is a bit unrealistic, based soley on the fact that at one time HDV made you mad and for that it's a worthless format. You really only mention your problems with a specific manufacturer (Sony) which is certainly not a fair assesment of HDV in general. Plenty of people get great footage and have no problems with those exact same cameras.

I see more artifacting and noise in DVX footage than I see in XH-A1 footage. My only complaint about the HDV format is the slightly compressed audio, which has yet to yield any significant problems. I have no problems with it in post. So what exactly are these "multiple levels" of problems that "plague" HDV?
 
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