Is the CION ever going to ship?

Jon thanks for posting this very informative post. Speaks volumes. You mentioned the "looks" that are more punchy and rich that the CION has but what if that isnt what you want. Will the CION have a flat log profile for more control in post? I think it's cool to have film stock looks in camera when you know what you want but not having a high dynamic flat option with such a great codec seems like a missing feature. Thanks for the post.
 
To answer Erik Naso's question: there are camera settings available that will allow a "flat" image to be produced (if that is more desirable to you).

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems
 
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That single answer should have been given a long time ago. It will have a log profile for grading. Great!

Having nice film stock emulsiom built in is highly desirable but as an additional tool for those who need it, not as the primary shooting mode in a high-end raw cinema camera that's specifically made and suitable for heavy post manipulation. I know many who overlooked the Cion when they saw the baked-in contrasty images that AJA termed "ungraded", they momentarily dismissed it.

Let's see some ungraded flat shots for download now please. You have no idea how important this simple thing might be to the success of the Cion.
 
Ebrahim,
Just to be clear: we do not offer a log mode at this time, but rather settings which allow you to produce a flat image.

Just a clarification about this since you referred to log in your post.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems
 
I don't know that I would necessarily miss a log mode very much especially since the camera is able to record RAW.
 
hscully said:
I don't know that I would necessarily miss a log mode very much especially since the camera is able to record RAW.
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File size. Raw makes huge ones. Not that 4444 isn't going to be big but if ProRes 422 is what you want then log would be nice.
 
Some quick comments regarding sensors and log profiles.

We do offer two forms of raw output; one via Thunderbolt and one via SDI. Like the Sony F5/55 series cameras, our raw output is linear because this is the most "untouched" signal we can provide from the sensor.

Log profiles are most often applicable when your sensor A/D exceeds your encoding ability. For example, you have a 14-bit A/D and you want to save an 8-bit file (a common case with many of the cameras in the market today). Log acts as a form of compression allowing you to get the 14-bit "mapped" as well as possible into an 8-bit container. Now consider that the AJA CION uses a 12-bit A/D, performs 12-bit processing, and then stores this in a 12-bit container (Apple ProRes 4444). In this method, you maintain the same specificity throughout. If you encode 10-bit with the camera, you are not making a huge sacrifice because the processing has been performed at 12-bit prior to the 10-bit encode.

The proof is always in how well an image holds up when "exercised" in post. Starting with a 12-bit or 10-bit image is always a good starting point.

I hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems
 
Erik Naso said:
File size. Raw makes huge ones. Not that 4444 isn't going to be big but if ProRes 422 is what you want then log would be nice.
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That's true about the RAW file size. Aja has a nice calculator iPhone app BTW. I suppose log would be nice for 422 as you say. It goes to what log gives you. If it allows the sensor to perform a little better it might prove useful. If it's just to get a flat look, then I don't think it's any problem to push that ProRes around.

The problem with log is that you wind up with very inconsistent results unless you have a LUT you can apply that brings you back to... what? To what the CION is doing in camera like shooting ProRes right to SxS in Alexa.

It would be nice to have, I admit but you still have to normalize that log and the Sony guys have gone on at length about how easy it is to mess that up in exposure and in post.

Do you use c-log with the Canons for your promo spots, Erik? The ones I've seen always look great. How does that workflow go for you?
 
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hscully said:
That's true about the RAW file size. Aja has a nice calculator iPhone app BTW. I suppose log would be nice for 422 as you say. It goes to what log gives you. If it allows the sensor to perform a little better it might prove useful. If it's just to get a flat look, then I don't think it's any problem to push that ProRes around.

The problem with log is that you wind up with very inconsistent results unless you have a LUT you can apply that brings you back to... what? To what the CION is doing in camera like shooting ProRes right to SxS in Alexa.

It would be nice to have, I admit but you still have to normalize that log and the Sony guys have gone on at length about how easy it is to mess that up in exposure and in post.

Do you use c-log with the Canons for your promo spots, Erik? The ones I've seen always look great. How does that workflow go for you?
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I always shoot C Log with C300. It's not as flat as Sony's and I have a lot of creative control. I go in and out of punchy colors and inky blacks. I like seeing stuff in the shadows but sometimes it makes the shot to busy so I hide them.

Grading is fairly easy because I use the same technique and when I find the look I just copy it to each clip then refine it in secondary if the exposure changes or I feel the shot needs something extra. To me this is fun not work. Editing the piece is harder. I love finishing! I think thats why I don't want a baked in look that much. I do like WideDR on the C100 and even on the C300 when I dont need log.

Thanks for the complaint! :-D
 
I have shot RAW with a RED and otherwise gone with what I could cook in the camera. Right now that's still that ol AF100. I've got pretty good with the settings on that camera and I imagine something like that with the CION. Thanks for sharing your workflow. It's good to hear your experience.
 
I think a 1 second downloadable clip shot with flattest setting possible would clear up this discussion. I would'nt want to buy the Cion if all the images I get from the card look like the ones posted by Aja, that would be a nightmare to grade. Show us how gradeable it is with the flattest profile. Very essential.
 
Jon Thorn said:
Some quick comments regarding sensors and log profiles.

We do offer two forms of raw output; one via Thunderbolt and one via SDI. Like the Sony F5/55 series cameras, our raw output is linear because this is the most "untouched" signal we can provide from the sensor.

Log profiles are most often applicable when your sensor A/D exceeds your encoding ability. For example, you have a 14-bit A/D and you want to save an 8-bit file (a common case with many of the cameras in the market today). Log acts as a form of compression allowing you to get the 14-bit "mapped" as well as possible into an 8-bit container. Now consider that the AJA CION uses a 12-bit A/D, performs 12-bit processing, and then stores this in a 12-bit container (Apple ProRes 4444). In this method, you maintain the same specificity throughout. If you encode 10-bit with the camera, you are not making a huge sacrifice because the processing has been performed at 12-bit prior to the 10-bit encode.

The proof is always in how well an image holds up when "exercised" in post. Starting with a 12-bit or 10-bit image is always a good starting point.

I hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems
Click to expand...

Again. Thanks! Very helpful! looking forward to seeing what the raw files look like. Fact is everybody has been asking for a 10 bit camera for some time the CION does that and more.
 
steve phillipps said:
But presumably the RAW out the back end is just that - raw direct from the sensor?
Steve
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This is one of those things that always bug me: the assumption that RAW data is virgin data pulses directly off a CMOS chip. It simply does not work that way, not on any camera. There are sensor drivers, A to D converters (a sensor is an analog device) and a whole lot more in the chain. EVERY manufacturer does their RAW output a little differently, even if in the end it is read in a similar manner in post. Canon varies wildly from Sony, which is quite different from RED, which is very different indeed from Visin Research, and on and on and on. RW data looks like the Matrix, and there is always some process work done before it is output. Honestly, it couldn't be output unless much of that work was done.

That said, Jon stated that the RAW output follows somewhat of the Sony model, as a 12-bit linear encode. Makes perfect sense, but just know that this makes it 180 degrees different to the structure of the RAW out of a camera like the C500. Not better or worse, just different.
 
Mitch Gross said:
This is one of those things that always bug me: the assumption that RAW data is virgin data pulses directly off a CMOS chip.
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Hey Mitch, yes, sorry, that didn't come out the right way, I realise that the idea of RAW being nothing bu 0s and 1s from the chip is not correct - there's the concept of "compressed RAW" which at first glance always seemed an oxymoron. But I had always assumed that it was fairly "raw", as in very little done to it and providing the most room for manoeuvre in grading.
Steve
 
The big advantage with raw is that you get the full linear DR and color gamut the sensor can capture unrestricted by the standards defined limits of a video codec. This will not be nearly as much of a limitation with REC2020 UHD as it is with REC709 codecs.
 
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