Is producing a good pathway for directing?

R

rc444

Well-known member
Is producing or production management a good pathway for directing?

I've been to film school, and like most, I want to be a director, but am weighing up either getting work as an art assist (I've heard art department can be quite fun collecting props), or the production assistant route.

The art department route sounds good for building up contacts for resources that you can use for your very own directing projects.

The production route also sounds good because if you work towards being a producer, I'd imagine you'd build up a lot of contacts. It would also stand to reason that to be a producer, you pretty much have to know everything about filmmaking, which would stand you in good stead with knowing your resources when you came to direct. I imagine producers would be paid the most, and have the most notoreity, so if you directed a film, but worked in a production background, you may have more authority, clout or visibility as a producer, if you went to direct something, than someone else.

Is my argument valid or flawed?

Would anyone advise producing as a good route to directing?

Thanks
rc444
 
At the end of the day, if you want to direct, you have to be capable, so having contacts will get you delivered to the door, but not through it. Making a kick ass film that grabs the attention of film festivals combined with having contacts would be a way to go, as well as a thorough know-how of the business and ideas or scripts for future projects on the ready.

So I mean, you could sell ice cream during the day and end up being successful if you make an amazing festival film, or you could be a P.A and sweet talk your way in, either way, you're gonna need the goods - proof that you can do stuff. I think a lot of people go to film school and end up being a P.A or art dept, the whole time thinking, "I'm gonna direct, I'm gonna direct" and then the same people are still there ten years later. It can be a trap for a lot of people.

It would take you a while go get to a position where you were the producer of something that could actually get you good money - this could take years of hard work and time...Time that you could have put into making your breakthrough film. Working on films as a smaller role is one way to meet people, but it's kind of ass kissing, and contacts can be made other ways. Being the best at what you do is one way to get noticed. If you prove that you can make films that deserve you being a director, then people will notice. There are lots of people out there doing the same thing, sure - but Tarantino made a good point when he said they're like Waves on the f**kin' beach.

So many people are waiting for that big break by trying to work their way from something like a P.A or whatever, but they don't sit back and realize that the reason they're not going through is because they're not making excellent films. Connections are one thing. But you have to be a package - there's a lot of business involved. A lot of risk, and money - you gotta find a way to prove that you're the man for the job.

Wait - I see you're from Wellington as well! Kick ass! Did you go to the Film School in Newtown?

I don't think that route would work so well in New Zealand, I don't know about you, but my plan is to work my ass off for the next few years making loads of films, building up to a feature and getting the hell out of the country first chance I get.
 
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I have always read that "If you want to be a director, you may not make a living for a while doing just directing, so consider other jobs like writing and producing." That just makes me laugh. Yeah, because it's so easy to make money as a screenwriter! NOT. Haha. It's almost impossible making a dime from writing anything. I got my first paycheck when I was 17, as a writer I mean, and it was decent pay for a high school student. But it's not easy to make money that way. And the idea that somehow you'd have trouble getting hired to direct something, but anyone would put you in charge of an even higher-up-the-totem-pole position like producer is just ridiculous. "Eh, you don't really have the experience to be the director, but how about this -- how about we hire a more experienced director, and we'll hire you to produce and tell him what to do!" Uhh, yeah because I'm sure that happens constantly.

Nah, the only way to be a producer first is to fund your own projects and hire another director. My former business partner is this way. He looks for money-making opportunities, like recent example filming a concert on DVD for "free," with a back-end of getting $4 per DVD sold, which should add up to about $40,000 (he's already half-way there and the DVD isn't out yet), and I'm not sure how much he spent on production (I was there, but it's hard to say), but I'm guessing somewhere around $10,000 or less, including editing. He didn't direct, doesn't care about directing, just wants to be a businessman and a producer. So he hired himself to produce, of course, because it was his project, and hired someone else to direct. That's about the only realistic way I see someone producing if they can't get hired as a director.
 
Ok, first off, my recommendation for any director OR producer _just starting out_ is this:

1. Sign up with an extras agency. Be an extra on three professional (film or tv) productions.

2. PA for three professional (film or tv) productions.

That said, the easiest way to make it as a producer is to have money. Period. If you're busting your @$$ trying to make features with $500 budgets you're simply going to have a much harder time than if you can put $500,000 or $10m or whatever into a feature and buy your way in. Investors that have an actual interest in filmmaking = Producer (as a career), 8 times out of 10.

Is it impossible to cut your teeth and build your rep as a producer on no budget projects? No (c.f. Lloyd Kaufman). But it sure as heck takes a lot longer.

For a _working_ director, I agree with Chris Hurn. It's 1/3 who you know, and 2/3rds ability to deliver (the remaining .01% is creativity).

To answer the OP's question, your argument is both flawed and valid. Whether as a PA or in the art department, both are good experiences that can open doors for motivated individuals. Whether producing or directing is your ultimate goal, in the absence of being able to buy your way in, just being on a set presents opportunities. Where your ultimately channel those opportunities is up to you and should be based on your career goals.

-Jeff
 
Jeff Koenig said:
Ok, first off, my recommendation for any director OR producer _just starting out_ is this:

1. Sign up with an extras agency. Be an extra on three professional (film or tv) productions.

2. PA for three professional (film or tv) productions.

That said, the easiest way to make it as a producer is to have money. Period. If you're busting your @$$ trying to make features with $500 budgets you're simply going to have a much harder time than if you can put $500,000 or $10m or whatever into a feature and buy your way in. Investors that have an actual interest in filmmaking = Producer (as a career), 8 times out of 10.

Is it impossible to cut your teeth and build your rep as a producer on no budget projects? No (c.f. Lloyd Kaufman). But it sure as heck takes a lot longer.

For a _working_ director, I agree with Chris Hurn. It's 1/3 who you know, and 2/3rds ability to deliver (the remaining .01% is creativity).

To answer the OP's question, your argument is both flawed and valid. Whether as a PA or in the art department, both are good experiences that can open doors for motivated individuals. Whether producing or directing is your ultimate goal, in the absence of being able to buy your way in, just being on a set presents opportunities. Where your ultimately channel those opportunities is up to you and should be based on your career goals.

-Jeff
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Well Said!!! Pretty much nailed it on the head.
 
Yeah the producer thing is always funny in that respect, but true. You would think and hope that a producer should know at least a little about EVERYTHING filmmaking related. But this isn't always true. This is true of the BEST producers, the ones you've heard of, the ones we all know. But a lot of run-of-the-mill producers are just people with some money, or access to people with money, who think they know enough about filmmaking to give it a go. Sometimes, they're right. Other times, they're not. This is why you get disagreements between directors and producers.

I have to admit I understand the producer-director tension to a large extent because even on my own productions where I produce and direct, it's very hard. They are not positions I think one person should share, ideally, because they have somewhat opposing goals. As a producer on a project, I'm looking to save money and deliver a quality product for what I was paid. As a director, I'm looking to make it artistically satisfying as well, and I want it to be the highest quality work I can do. So sometimes, the producer side of me has to tell the director side, "Look you don't need that position on this shoot, make do without. We can't afford it all and this is the least essential position. I'm sorry, wish the budget were better, but it isn't." I think being both producer and director on something makes you schizoid if you're doing your jobs right, so I pretty much hate having to do both. I'll tolerate being a producer and director if I have at least a Unit Production Manager to deal with some of the producing responsibilities.

The film industry is the type of situation where you realize that life is not fair. I don't think it should be fair, but if you ever had any doubts... ;) It's a creative medium, where ideally creativity would always be able to make money and everyone would be happy. But because you need money for this art form more than any other art form on earth, if you have the money and have an interest in filmmaking the odds are stacked in your favor. To some extent just having enough money makes it pretty easy to buy your way in and rig the game for you to succeed.

If you have enough money, say Bill Gates got bored, you can easily afford to buy a great script from one of the best screenwriters, attach top name talent, and put the pieces in place to return money on your investment. Or you can take lots of riskier, but smaller investments in various films and see where the chips fall.

As another example, this is something I gave a lot of thought about only because I thought it was really funny, just insane enough it would probably work, is what if someone dropped $200,000 on a music video. What if you had $200,000 cash, you want into the film industry, you have some experience but you can't figure out a way to get a break. So now you want to buy your way in, but you know $200,000 is a far-cry from a guarantee of being able to make a half-way decent feature. So you have a totally insane idea, just crazy enough it might work. You start making calls to major record labels, and you tell them flat out here is the deal -- I want to direct the next video for The Killers, or My Chemical Romance, or Fallout Boy, or whatever, and I'll finance the entire thing, $200,000 cash, no risk to you guys, I don't even care about recouping the investment. No strings attached. Who is going to turn down such an offer?! NOBODY. They may think you're joking but a copy of your financial records faxed to their office will go a long ways to proving you're for real ;) Now you direct a killer video for a major band, that video of course gets airplay on major national and international networks, and your story is so ridiculous, so ludicrous, it's not a stretch to get all of the trades to pick up on it, and probably get some write-ups in various other entertainment publications. It becomes a story with the band's followers, other bands hear about it because how can they not, and pretty soon you have other labels knowing who you are, because after all, it's their business to know these things. You get signed with a production company, pretty soon you're directing other big label videos, all because you did something nobody else has done before and you were just crazy enough to make it work ;)
 
I was actally recently wondering the same thing. I am so lost as to the route in which I would like to take. I kind of wish I wanted to be a lawyer or something similar in which you go to school get your diploma and start a career. But nooo I want to be a filmmaker haha. So many options.

Ultimately, if you want to direct...direct. Make films, we are are professional excuse makers but we struggle ( some of us ) as filmmakers. Less talk more rock.
 
I hate hate hate hate producing. It's all about money, schedules (actually that's AD work), locations, people, and bullshit. However, being an unknown director for now, no one is going to let me direct their films... yet. So I must produce to direct.

So in a sense, yes, producing is a good path to directing.
 
Producing is the hardest job there is. Most of that work is done before anyone sets foot on set so to them it doesn't appear that you do much. There are almost 600 line items in your budget needed to generate the top sheet. Travel on short notice halfway around the globe, gap financing deals and the mountain of paperwork needed for each one, tax credit paperwork so your investors are guaranteed at least sixty cents on the dollar back even if the production is a dud, bond postings, irrevocable confirmed letters of credit, SAG and ACTRA collective agreements for review even as an independant producer for rate calculations, completion bonds, rental deals. Longer days on a set than anyone else, and on and on.

I am even stupid enough to finally be producing my own first feature, (here we go again).
 
craigbowman said:
Producing is the hardest job there is. Most of that work is done before anyone sets foot on set so to them it doesn't appear that you do much. There are almost 600 line items in your budget needed to generate the top sheet. Travel on short notice halfway around the globe, gap financing deals and the mountain of paperwork needed for each one, tax credit paperwork so your investors are guaranteed at least sixty cents on the dollar back even if the production is a dud, bond postings, irrevocable confirmed letters of credit, SAG and ACTRA collective agreements for review even as an independant producer for rate calculations, completion bonds, rental deals. Longer days on a set than anyone else, and on and on.

I am even stupid enough to finally be producing my own first feature, (here we go again).
Click to expand...


Jesus christ..... Good luck man. If you're every in va, dc, md I'm always available ;)
 
zergtherobot said:
I was actally recently wondering the same thing. I am so lost as to the route in which I would like to take. I kind of wish I wanted to be a lawyer or something similar in which you go to school get your diploma and start a career. But nooo I want to be a filmmaker haha. So many options.

Ultimately, if you want to direct...direct. Make films, we are are professional excuse makers but we struggle ( some of us ) as filmmakers. Less talk more rock.
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Haha, I hear that too. I really love filmmaking and don't believe I will be happy without doing it. But I have business options, as far as I could work for my dad's company and move up fairly quickly, and it's always somewhat tempting in the sense that it's more straight-forward but I'm kind of harsh on myself, too. Not only do I not think I'd be happy, I don't think I could respect myself if I took the easy way out, so therefore I don't think anyone else would respect me. I want to make it on my own, in another industry, ideally.
 
I am preparing my first feature film. Producing is killing me! If I do not finish this production sh++t in the next 20-30 days it will be the end for me. But I still think its the only way for first film. And above all, this global finansial crizes and sponsors are hard to find... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Maybe I missed something here. You graduated film school, so acquire a script, crew and camera, then direct the thing.

Shazam, you're a director.
 
As much as I agree with alveraz, I think rc444 meant a paid professional in the biz.

Most of the stories I hear, a student makes something great and people come calling. The key is that it has to be "great". Not just good, GREAT. And that's the rub.
 
As another example, this is something I gave a lot of thought about only because I thought it was really funny, just insane enough it would probably work, is what if someone dropped $200,000 on a music video. What if you had $200,000 cash, you want into the film industry, you have some experience but you can't figure out a way to get a break. So now you want to buy your way in, but you know $200,000 is a far-cry from a guarantee of being able to make a half-way decent feature. So you have a totally insane idea, just crazy enough it might work. You start making calls to major record labels, and you tell them flat out here is the deal -- I want to direct the next video for The Killers, or My Chemical Romance, or Fallout Boy, or whatever, and I'll finance the entire thing, $200,000 cash, no risk to you guys, I don't even care about recouping the investment. No strings attached. Who is going to turn down such an offer?! NOBODY. They may think you're joking but a copy of your financial records faxed to their office will go a long ways to proving you're for real ;) Now you direct a killer video for a major band, that video of course gets airplay on major national and international networks, and your story is so ridiculous, so ludicrous, it's not a stretch to get all of the trades to pick up on it, and probably get some write-ups in various other entertainment publications. It becomes a story with the band's followers, other bands hear about it because how can they not, and pretty soon you have other labels knowing who you are, because after all, it's their business to know these things. You get signed with a production company, pretty soon you're directing other big label videos, all because you did something nobody else has done before and you were just crazy enough to make it work ;)
Click to expand...

It's an interesting idea though I think you run the risk of other labels only being interested if you keep funding your own videos, even if the original was good
 
I personally think it would be a great way because, depending on the film, the producer often hires the director e.g. you could hire yourself.

If you start a production company and produce an indie film which you direct as well - you can then say you have directed a feature film which may lead to recognition as a DIRECTOR through festivals.

It also means instead of spending 15 years working your way up to directing a small film, you could be directing a film you are producing next year. Experience/recognition is vital in this industry and if you make a feature for $40 000 and it is recieved really well at Cannes and you get a distibution deal you could then approach famous producers as an award winning, feature film director (regardless of the fact you hired yourself) as opposed to being some young fella who's helped in the art department and moved a few lights and served some coffee.

Producing can be dull but you'll have industry people coming to YOU instead of the other way 'round with you pestering for a job which I'm guessing is the case at the moment.


Just a few thoughts for you,
-Sbailey
 
All the points made here are valid -- there are many ways to survive until you get to make your own movie and become a director. But the only way you're going to learn how to direct is by directing. It takes a long time, sometimes a lifetime.

If making a living is not an issue, focus only on directing.

If you do other jobs, you'll pick up bad habits; stick to directing.
 
Best advice my teacher every gave me was "Go make a movie". That was more than ten years ago. If I had done it then, even if on video, I would've been better at it now. I had to remember how to do everything. While it's all easier now it still takes talent and a good eye. I'm already developing shots for my next film which is six months away.

If you want to direct, then do it. If you're looking to direct for cash then you're still going to have something to show that you can direct. Do what everyone else here does. Get a camera and go make a movie. If it's good, you're in good shape. If it's bad, learn from it. I made two films. I learned so much from my first film. I still do a lot of static shots. If there's no reason to move the camera I probably won't.

You learn from doing a lot more than you learn from watching. (At least I do). My friends and I made two shorts before I shot my feature. I could've kept shooting shorts but it's not like shooting a feature. Shorts condense a lot into a small amount of time. The time it took to shoot that short could be equal to the same amount of time you put into shooting a scene. Also you have to plan a lot more because you're planning over a longer period of time. It's very interesting.

My advice would be to get on as many sets as possible and yes I would say producing would be a good route as well as being a production assistant or AD if you're trying to get work versus doing your own stuff. But that's just my 2 cents.

-Nate
 
So problematic a question. The old addage, "more than one way to skin a cat" applies to the film business more than many other areas.

The whole, "if you want to direct, then go direct" school is technically true but on the other hand...EVERYONE wants to direct...absolutely everyone it seems.

I never wanted to direct before I HAD to do it. I wanted to be simply a screenwriter and let the professionals handle technically bringing the film to fruition. However, reality hit me and I decided that the only way I would get writing credits were to make them happen.

So, I started working on films to get contacts to eventually lead to finding folks to shoot my scripts. Well, after some experience, I caught the bug of wanting to direct. So I've directed several shorts and 1 feature thus far and have been producing many more along the way.

Everything I do now feeds the monster...sharpen producing skills to hopefully enable me to direct one of my scripts at a high production level some day.

In the interim, I do "get hired" quite a lot to Produce projects as I have worked my way up from the ultra-low-budget scene. My previous work-for-hire job was a short that had an actor from L.A. come all the way to Atlanta, GA to shoot his passion project with me and my crew. We delivered pretty well for him with 5 Festivals (including two awards) to date. On time, and under budget (slightly). It doesn't make me a lot of money but it does allow me to cultivate my cast and crew talent with paid gigs which will bode well in the future when I might need a favor for my own projects.

I'm in the middle of 2 paid producing jobs right now in fact as well.

Also, not by happenstance, I have sold scripts and gotten several writing assignments as well by actually being a produced writer and able to win gigs and get people reading my material.

So, while I do think it all helps in the process (my next directing effort will be better for the lessons I've learned elsewhere since my last one), it does take some focus off that particular task for me.

I often lament the fact that I've not directed anything in X amount of time and in terms of my 2nd Feature, I'm as far away from that as I was when I finished my 1st feature because I'm determined to raise a proper budget to do it right.

So, as you can tell, it takes a long time to become a director (if one ever really becomes one of note) so anything you do in the interim is just that...stuff you do in the interim. I'd say to do what you think will be most fulfilling as you pursue becoming a director. Might as well be happy making a living if you can.

Also, I'd encourage folks who think they want to direct to seriously look at other areas that might hit the spot creatively for them. Otherwise, you better check your will and be sure there's enough in the tank for a long road ahead.

Just my .02

-M
 
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