Is Panasonic getting left in the dust?

cecil995

cecil995

Well-known member
It seems to me that the market that Panasonic has been dominating for the past few years is starting to show serious compeption by Canon, JVC and Sony. 3 years ago, Panasonic was the only company that offered true 24p aquisition, but now with the introduction of the XH-A1, V1U, and HD-100, there are very attractive alternatives.

Granted all those other cameras have adopted the HDV format, but is it really that much of a drop off from the dvcpro HD that the HVX uses? Is the small drop off in quality worth the ability to shoot on tape? It seems to me that the P2 cards are a great idea and having to skip the capturing process is a nice relief, but even with a 16gig card available, it still doesn't seem really practical for documentary filmmakers (unless they go around with a hard drive strapped to their back).

I love panasonic, and have been a loyal DVX user for 3 years now and it was a no-brainer when i ponied up the 3 grand to buy it, but if I had the choices now that I didn't have then, I am not sure what I would have bought. I know that each camera is going to have its small things that it does better than the next, but overall they are all basically going to give you the same thing.

I am just wondering if Panasonic is starting to feel the heat, and has any intentions on making some new model that will put it in the front line once again.
 
I don't think Panasonic is out of the running by any means. That said, I truly believe they blew it when they didn't have a followup to the DVX. It was just stupid - why give Canon and Sony an opening at all? They had (and still have) huge loyalty off the DVX, but the longer they wait, the more folks will go with the Canons and the Sonys - and often it is hard to get that crowd back. Best not to lose the crowd in the first place.

The DVX is not sustainable in its current price range - not with the A1 clocking in at around $3200. It cannot go on like this.

The big mistake these companies make - and Sony makes compulsively - is to hold back on features and try to push folks up market pricewise. It's stupid. Give the public what they need at a reasonable price, and don't worry about protecting the upper range of the market - otherwise you'll find yourself outgunned by other companies including newcomers (Red).

Panny needs to come out with a new camera to replace the DVX - stat. Every day delayed, is market share lost.

24p is now available for @$1000 (HV20). Don't hold back!

Here's what I'd like to see: AVC-HD, VFR, 16:9, 24p, direct XLR, affordable p2 type solution ($100 for 100GB), 20 x Zoom, manual focus ring option. All for $1500 street. And no, I don't need a pony with that :) I don't think this is unrealistic.

If Panny comes out with something like that by the end of the year, they'll lock up the market for the foreseeable future.
 
yes, dvcproHD is THAT higher in quality. That said, it's true that the workflow is more difficult, so you just have to choose ur weapon.

For me picture quality is more important.
 
For some, shooting on tape may be viewed as an advantage, but that's a short-term view. Tape is going to disappear; no new tape formats are being developed, and rather than "getting left in the dust" Panasonic's going to look quite prescient when we're shooting on 32GB cards eight months from now, with three hours of footage in-camera. Or when shooting on 128GB cards a couple of years from now, with 11 hours of footage in-camera: enough to do an entire 90-minute feature film at an almost 5:1 ratio, without ever swapping cards!

But yes, they've seriously lost ground in the low-end market. I think the HVX is absolutely untouchable, especially with the new developments (16GB cards coming out in a few weeks, 32GB cards coming out at the end of the year, Hydra giving it uncompressed 2K resolution at 14-bit recording, and the rumors of FCP6 supporting native MXF editing). Everything else at the $5,000 - $10,000 bracket is gonna start looking awful stale by comparison.

But for everything below that price point, frankly Panasonic hasn't kept up. The HV20 is amazing at its price point, and basically invents a new price point for 24p shooters. The XHA1 has a lot to offer at the same price as the DVX. The DVX needs a significant price drop to remain attractive in the marketplace.

I don't see JVC or Sony doing anything though; JVC is stuck with their HD200/HD250 line, which becomes a whole lot less attractive in light of the XHA1 and HPX500. And Sony? They've only got one dog in this fight, and judging by the forum traffic, "dog" may be the right word for it. No, the battle for hearts and minds seems to be pretty much Panasonic & Canon right now.

Panasonic's attention appears to be on the higher market, and they're slaying in that range. The HPX500 is amazing and they're selling every HPX2000 they can make and scoring big deals with national broadcasters. HPX2000s and P2 cards are sold out everywhere. They're hitting big home runs in the big-camera department, and the HVX is going to pick up major momentum this year -- but that doesn't help a lot of us on DVXUser though; many of us are in the $3,000 price bracket and below, and Panasonic's certainly not currently leading the pack in that price bracket!

Panasonic's big trump card is going to be AVC-HD. But it's not delivering yet; basically I don't think AVC-HD is quite ready to do what it's intended to do; all the AVC-HD camcorders have been little consumer cams. I expect Panasonic to bring out something killer with AVC-HD, an inexpensive HVX-style cam but recording to $20 SD memory cards, or an HV20 at half the size -- but there's no indication that they'll do it any time soon. Once they do, we'll see how the balance of power shakes out. But for the immediate time frame, Canon's really done very well for themselves with these newest product introductions.
 
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Cecil, good point with the documentary comment. I hadn't thought of that cause I only do narrative stuff. But I look at the HVX the same way Barry does: this seems to be more about the future and less about the right now. Hence we all have to sort of "deal" with the limitations of P2 cards, which are pretty impractical in their current capactiy, no matter how you look at it (well, maybe if you're doing a short it's okay).

But you want to know the reason I'll stick with Panasonic? I'll tell you why. THIS WEBSITE. I can get a question answered about the DVX or the HVX quickly and thoughtfully whenever I want right here on this forum. Even the most ultra-specific techy random question I can think of - someone on this forum will quickly answer that question for me. I don't think that's the case for these other cameras. Just my two cents but I think they're pretty valuable.
 
c.g._eads said:
But you want to know the reason I'll stick with Panasonic? I'll tell you why. THIS WEBSITE. I can get a question answered about the DVX or the HVX quickly and thoughtfully whenever I want right here on this forum. Even the most ultra-specific techy random question I can think of - someone on this forum will quickly answer that question for me. I don't think that's the case for these other cameras. Just my two cents but I think they're pretty valuable.
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For the Sony that's probably true but the amount of support you get depended on the popularity of the cameras. The A1 and the HV20 in particular have gathered a large user base here and the Canon section now gets quite a bit of traffic.

For me personally though, it's not about company loyalty at all. If Canon produces a camera at that have the features what I want at a price I can afford, I'll buy it; same thing with Panna, Sony, JVC or whoever.
 
Canon XHA1/hows 24p vs 100b, other questions

Canon XHA1/hows 24p vs 100b, other questions

just saw this canon mentioned on the forum.
a few questions,
how much is the A1i going for and other than the interchangeable lens on the XLH1, which i could care less about, what major features worth knowing about does it not have that the H1 has.

on the 24p end, how does it fair compared to the 100b and how is the lowlight on the A1.
 
Barry_Green said:
Hydra giving it uncompressed 2K resolution at 14-bit recording
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I'm curious about this.

2K uncompressed has a data rate north of 300MBs/sec and is 16bit linear/10bit log. Recording that to P2 in the scenario you describe would only yield about 5 or 6 minutes of footage wouldn't it?

If Hydra is a new codec from Panasonic that raises the bar from the current DVCProHD that would be great, and as much as I think all of this talk about 2K and 4K is entertaining I'd rather see these developers work together a bit better to provide tools that will help all of us do HD right.

But I'd like to know more about Hydra, are there any good white papers about this?
 
Personally, I find shooting to tape an extreme disadvantage, high-def or not. Having owned an HVX, I could never go back to shooting on tape...

Now if Canon or Sony came out with a 24p camera for < $3,000 that shot 4:2:2 on a non-tape based media, then Panasonic should worry. But there's nothing close now.
 
i bought tapes for the first time in many months this morning. I was covering the NYC international Auto show, and i still wound up getting all the footage i needed on 2 8 gigers in 24pn.

The tapes were bought in Vain. P2 is like oysters. IT seems weird at first, but once you try it, youre like.... "Holy crap this awesome!"



EDIT: And another thing! lol, The hvx200 is in my experince the most in-demand camera on the idie scene here in NYC. I have not even HEARD of any one requesting a Canon, or Sony camera. EVERYONE wants Hvx's, or HPX's.
 
Barry_Green said:
It's not recording to P2, it records direct to a computer. Hydra isn't a Panasonic product, it's a mod to the HVX from www.reel-stream.com.
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I'm confused?

First off I read most of the white paper, an interesting juxtaposition of the facts. I'll read it again to be sure but it seems to be yet another long explanation of how you can get all the dynamic range you need from 8bits. Quantel, Kodak, Technicolor and a host of others couldn't do it so I don't see why they think they can produce comparable images with 8bits.

For the moment lets give them the benefit of the doubt, all those companies didn't know what they were doing, but how can they claim to be able to get uncompressed 2K from the HVX over what appears to be a firewire or USB cable?

Last time I checked FW or USB couldn't do 300MBs/sec! Either the frame size is smaller the 2048x1556, or the frame rate is slower than 10 frames a second or they are compressing. What gives? My guess is that it has to be some other data transfer protocol, but I wasn't aware of one on the DVX what about the HVX?
 
Lots of discussion about the Andromeda and the Hydra elsewhere on the board. Details of the Hydra haven't been announced yet, just an initial announcement of what he expects to accomplish. Juan is a member of this board if you want to send a message to him directly.
 
A different perspective:

A different perspective:

cecil995 said:
It seems to me that the market that Panasonic has been dominating for the past few years is starting to show serious compeption by Canon, JVC and Sony. 3 years ago, Panasonic was the only company that offered true 24p aquisition, but now with the introduction of the XH-A1, V1U, and HD-100, there are very attractive alternatives.
.
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Based on this observation,i.e. that others mimic what Panasonic has done, it's arguable that Panansonic is a leader.

Don't get me wrong, no company/manufacturer is perfect, (I have issues with a few of the HVX's quirks and, over the years, have found myself angry at occasional poor-quality) but IMO Panny did a good job with the HVX and just may be carving the path to the future. They certainly seem to have a loyal following.

Two points to consider:
1) "imitation is the highest form of flattery", and
2) "My critics do me the biggest favor, for they point out my shortcomings." (paraphrase of Ben Franklin).

x
 
I have a question about Panasonic vs the others: The DP I worked with last weekend has the new Sony CMOS HDV camera and was talking about the camera's HDMI out. The HVX has component out - is there a difference here? AFAIK, HDMI is component + audio? Is that correct? I just remember this being unique to me, because he had a setup to record HDMI in to his Mac Pro, so he was recording HDV to tape and HDMI to Mac Pro, using the DVCPRO HD codec (lol) but they have similar breakout boxes to take component in, right?
 
TimurCivan said:
The tapes were bought in Vain. P2 is like oysters. IT seems weird at first, but once you try it, youre like.... "Holy crap this awesome!"
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I now know the feeling a little better now, but it's different with a Firestore. Don't have the thumbnail functionality of HVX/P2 but I can play individual clips back through firewire. The cool thing about HDV and the Firestore is you get a nice hybrid approach which allows for the archival safety of tape but the immediacy of tapeless.

I can plug the FS-C into my Mac, drag the QT HDV 24F clips directly to a FCP HDV 1080p 24 bin/timeline and immediately edit from the device. The HDV tapes recorded simultaneously (with timecode that matches the FS-C clips) are merely a backup now. I simply put the HDV tapes away for safekeeping.

The tape capture process has finally been bypassed for me...but I can always batch re-capture a project without having to archive everything on hard drives. (which isn't a bad idea now that external drives are so cheap)

I dig the IT workflow too. :)
 
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Thats cool elton. Yea the firestore is pretty awesome. The whole IT workflow is so much fun. I may buy a smal HDV camcorder, jsut to make Tape backups of all the DVCpro footage. Vegas has a "print to HDV" tool. this way nom atter whats in there, you can make a HDV tape backup. Sure you lose some quality, but its better than having nothing.
 
Barry_Green said:
Panasonic's big trump card is going to be AVC-HD. But it's not delivering yet; basically I don't think AVC-HD is quite ready to do what it's intended to do; all the AVC-HD camcorders have been little consumer cams. I expect Panasonic to bring out something killer with AVC-HD, an inexpensive HVX-style cam but recording to $20 SD memory cards, or an HV20 at half the size -- but there's no indication that they'll do it any time soon. Once they do, we'll see how the balance of power shakes out. But for the immediate time frame, Canon's really done very well for themselves with these newest product introductions.
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I think that this approach sounds about right, if they can get everything lined up. From what I understand AVC-HD is not very compatible for most editing platforms at the moment, so that will take awhile to catch up.

I think that the HVX looks like a great camera, but I think that many people, myself included, would like to see panny come out with a simpler HD version (doesn't need to be 4:2:2) somewhere in the 3-4k price range. I know that panny didn't board the HDV bandwagon with the other manufacturers, so other than AVC-HD, I am not sure what format they would use.
 
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