Is it just me?

[Mac]

I, like most others in this forum, have been considering an HD - HDV camera. The Sony has issues, much discussed here and elsewhere. I considered the JVC until I learned about it's lens and split screen problems. The Canon (since I have, and very much like, an XL-2) seemed like an obvious choice - until I learned about the format/deck issue... That left the HVX200, which requires very expensive P2 cards.

Some have said they will buy the HVX, camera only, and wait for the price of the cards to come down. Then there has been the rumor of the camera not being available without the cards... (not, admittedly, substantiated in the US).

My take is - if I currently own a good DV camera, why buy the Panasonic at all (if I can only shoot Mini-DV with it) and wait patiently for the price and size of P2 cards to catch up with the market? It makes more sense to wait for the 2nd or 3rd generation of the camera and buy it then. And what if P2 flops? (I don't think it will, but what if?).

I make documentary films for television, and so far that has not required an image better than the one I can currently produce with my XL-2 (which, by the way, is excellent when viewed on a large plasma HD screen).

Money isn't the issue here - in the past I've spent more on film and processing for one documentary than the cost of even the most expensive of these cameras. But I had intended to jump on the HDV bandwagon so I could shoot in that format for possible future projects that may require the improved resolution.

But it doesn't seem that the manufacturers are playing by the rules... They are introducing buzz words into our consciousness, making us believe that we need something, but none of them are delivering a product that we can be sure will be compatable with our needs in the future...

 

[delaro]

it s not only shooting in mini dv. we just want to buy the camera alone and add a firestore (a hard drive designed for the cam) which is cheaper and stores a lot more than the P2 cards.

 

[delaro]

and the price of this kind of card is exponential. i prefer to buy some 4 gb at the beginning, it will probably be a lot cheaper.

 

[Haakon]

Hey Mac,

I think some of your points are right on and others are a little shaky. But I think that utlimately you just have to decide if the camera has useful features that will improve the needs of your production, and if so, if it is worth the extra cost.

Some have said they will buy the HVX, camera only, and wait for the price of the cards to come down. Then there has been the rumor of the camera not being available without the cards... (not, admittedly, substantiated in the US).

It's a new camera, with a new format, and there are many options. Personally, I like P2. A lot. I'm planning to buy one 8GB card at the offset (I can't afford two), and use it just like I would shooting 16mm - offload when it gets full. Of course, the advantage over film is that I can trash bad takes instantly in the camera (and extend my shooting time) and I can see exactly what I'm capturing as I'm shooting. It seems like a lot of people on the forums are intent on using a firestore drive to record their footage. While I don't personally like hard-drive acquisition solutions, it would certainly get you much more recording time for the same price of that one 8GB card. And, if your camera is stationary, you can even just plug it into a laptop and record unlimited amounts of footage right to your computer. That's definitely a workable solution as well. The camera *will* be available without any cards right from the beginning... I'm not sure where that rumor originated (or if it even has validity overseas), but I see that you're from California, so it doesn't effect you one way or the other.

My take is - if I currently own a good DV camera, why buy the Panasonic at all (if I can only shoot Mini-DV with it) and wait patiently for the price and size of P2 cards to catch up with the market? It makes more sense to wait for the 2nd or 3rd generation of the camera and buy it then. And what if P2 flops? (I don't think it will, but what if?).

Those are all very good points. Frankly, if you're only planning to use it to shoot SD DV, then I would say the camera would be a complete waste of money. I don't think they should have included a MiniDV tape mechanism in it at all, but I understand their reasonings for doing so. Anyway, if you aren't planning to spend on P2 right out the gate, and if you aren't interested in firestore, and if you don't have a laptop or computer (or the shots you need to get wouldn't facilitate that kind of recording workflow), then you're right... the camera probably isn't for you. And if you decide later that it does make more sense (when P2 prices come down, etc.), then it will still be available for you at that time. I think you already understand all of this... you just have to decide what works best for your individual situation.

I make documentary films for television, and so far that has not required an image better than the one I can currently produce with my XL-2 (which, by the way, is excellent when viewed on a large plasma HD screen).

Then why even consider an HVX? If you don't need anything better than you've already got, you've answered your own question.

Money isn't the issue here - in the past I've spent more on film and processing for one documentary than the cost of even the most expensive of these cameras. But I had intended to jump on the HDV bandwagon so I could shoot in that format for possible future projects that may require the improved resolution.

Well if money isn't an issue, then I don't see why the cost of P2 really makes a difference. You've kind of gone back on yourself with this statement. But again, it just depends on your needs. If your XL2 gives you all of the resolution you need, then you don't need a better camera. If something has caused you to believe that you are going to need to start shooting in HD - or you are legitimately concerned about "future proofing" your material so it is available in higher resolution for the future, then maybe the HVX would be a worthwhile investment. I would say that even for the meantime, if you decide to keep shooting in SD, the nicer color sampling and lower compression of DVCPRO50 recording could be very beneficial to you and help you get the best SD image possible for your work - but that would again require the use of P2 cards to take advantage of the feature. The HVX and one 8GB P2 card would allow you to shoot 16 minutes of DVCPRO50 footage at a time at a cost of under $8,000. If you can spring for two cards, you're up to over half an hour of footage - and that could be workable, even for "documentary" acquisition. Don't forget that you can always dump the cards and keep shooting... so even if you need to record several hours in one day, if you've got the time to clear the cards in between shooting, even that is a possibility with the limited capactiy of P2. Finally, if you've been shooting film in the past, then you should already be used to the limitations of short-run stock times. The obvious advantage to P2 is that once you invest in the cards (which can easily pay for themselves in just a couple of shoots when the alternative of buying film, processing, developing, and telecine is taken into account), you have them forever and the subsequent costs for future projects goes way down.

But it doesn't seem that the manufacturers are playing by the rules... They are introducing buzz words into our consciousness, making us believe that we need something, but none of them are delivering a product that we can be sure will be compatable with our needs in the future...

I will agree that some people are probably being overcome with hype (as is the case for just about any new technological advancement). But I don't think it's all smoke and mirrors. We now have a camera, that, for under $10K (under $8K, even), can capture very low-compressed, high-color space, professional video that we can put on DVDs and send to anyone in the world. Add to that the ability to shoot HD video in the best format around, and throw it all into a package that offers instant accessibility and eliminates the need for digitizing footage into an NLE. If that's not "being compatible with future needs," then I don't know what is.

 

[Neopics]

And what if P2 flops? (I don't think it will, but what if?).

This may not be as much a concern as you think. The cards have a life span of 100,000 write cycles. That's really a lot when you think about it. So as long as you have working cards and a working camera, you'll be able to use them over and over again for nearly a lifetime.

 

[knightgames]

I'm planning on DV shooting with P2.

I'm planning on DV shooting with P2.

I'm not sure what your field conditions are when your documentary filming. But my own thoughts are that I plan on buying the camera for DV. I'll use P2 cards and load off over an hour of footage to my laptop.

The reason I ask your field conditions is it may be cumbersome or even impractical to bring a laptop. I feel it's worth it. No tape drop outs. Time saved on loading tape verses uploading P2 card. No tape drop outs. More reliable in varying weather/ climate conditions, as tape can be adversely affected by high humidity, sand, rain, snow, hail (well HVX probably would fail with a golfball hailstone, but I digress) did I mention no tape drop outs?

Other than great improvememnts in camera technology, what other reason do folks need new camers. For me the anwswer lies in wear and tear. Heads, tape paths, and posts, et al. ALL become useless because they are mechanical devises.
HVX combined with P2 will eliminate a LOT of wear and tear on a camera.


Yes it's expensive. The features of the camera, and my experience with the DVX 100 PLUS the added reliability of SOLID STATE P2, leads me to believe that investing in the HVX is a good move. EVEN for standard Definition DV. You may shell out $10,000 or there abouts...... but I bet the HVX lasts longer than ALL my SONYs put together....with little or no stress.

When my market needs HD I'll be ready.

 

[Mac]

I agree with most of what you've said (about P2 cards), but I think you've missed the point... My concern was, and is, that there seems to be a compatability issue between the manufacturers - because they're all jumping forward and trying to out do each other - and it's marketing, not professional needs, that they're concerned with...

When Arriflex or Aaton introduce a new camera they don't make it 20mm or 46mm, they stick with 16 or 35 because they're established formats. There may be Super16 and Super35, but they still use the same film and play on the same projectors or telecines...

I know that this is new technology, but we, as independent producers, are being asked to 'beta test", at our expense, these new ways to capture (and play back) images until one emerges as the winner... And the point I was making is that we are being told we need it now, when in fact there is a minimal need in the marketplace for HD deliverables... But the films I make often take 2-3 years to shoot and edit, so I have to anticipate needs 2-3 years from now when I start a new film, so that's why I don't want to be a victim of buzz-word marketing - and you've got to admit it's been pretty confusing (why else would we all be Ford versus Chevy bashing on these forums).

I said money isn't an issue for me - it isn't if I can write the cost into a budget. Panasonic, with the introduction of the 100 and the 100A, showed that they are listening to at least some "pro" needs, and I, also, do believe that solid state is the wave of the future.

So, if it (HD) is required for a project, I'll buy an HVX with at least 6 P2 cards (that's how many 16mm magazines I've found I need, at 10 minutes each) and I won't look back... Although, as I've said several times before, I detest the 1950's ergonomics of "Handicams" - no professional camera has been designed with the viewfinder on the back since Eclair introduced the NPR in 1966 - and, please, I don't want to argue about this any more. If you're okay with it, fine.. I'm not.. and I wish Panasonic would add an intermediate camera (similar to the old Sony DSR-200 - a really well designed camera ergonomically speaking) to the P2 line-up.

I'd rent if I could, but the time I take to shoot a doc precludes that. And if the whole format (whatever you want to call it) thing was resolved, I wouldn't hesitate buying a top end camera.. but not until then, because now it seems I'm having to acquire something new every time I enter pre-production on a film - and that much $ I cannot afford every 2 years...

 

[khmuse]

Mac -

I think you are discounting the advantage of the P2 work flow and only looking at the associated costs of acquiring the cards. I would expect that rentals of P2 cards will be well below what a 400' magazine rental would cost be as their acquisition costs are lower. As you have indicated, you find that 6 magazines is what you need for the type of work that you do, therefore the idea of using 6 P2 cards seems valid, however, with the inevitable drop in costs, owning that number at the beginning seems to be perhaps poor use of fiscal resources. Owning 1 or 2 would make sense, but just like shooting film projects, very few purchase what they can rent reasonably, so consier renting the rest.

The inevitable devaluation of the first P2 cards (based upon the higher capacity ones that will be coming) would seem to point to the rental path as being the most economic approach. Consider how much you will be saving on the cost eliminating your film loader and the lab costs and it is hard to argue against the P2 path, but I would wait to purchase a larger number of them.

 

[Haakon]

I agree with most of what you've said (about P2 cards), but I think you've missed the point... My concern was, and is, that there seems to be a compatability issue between the manufacturers - because they're all jumping forward and trying to out do each other - and it's marketing, not professional needs, that they're concerned with...

This has existed since the beginning of time. Different formats... "format wars" between companies... proprietary solutions... it's no different today than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago, and it will continue to be that way into the future. You just have to deal with it and choose the best format that meets your needs.

This may or may not be P2. But P2 is established - it has been put to use in several big markets, and while it may not be "THE" singular format available, I also don't think it's a here-today-gone-tomorrow flash in the pan solution. Panasonic has put considerable resources and investment into making P2 work; they are counting on its success just as much as you or I are.

When Arriflex or Aaton introduce a new camera they don't make it 20mm or 46mm, they stick with 16 or 35 because they're established formats. There may be Super16 and Super35, but they still use the same film and play on the same projectors or telecines...

That's true, but it's because 16mm film is a decades old standard. We don't live in that kind of world anymore. Look at all of the proprietary technologies Sony has developed just in the last 10 years... MiniDisc (which was proprietary at the outset) took forever to get off the ground, and by the time it did, it had already been eclipsed by better technology. Memory Stick (which is only useful in Sony products) is dying off and has been completely bettered by the slew of other readily available flash memory choices. And I don't think I've ever seen someone using a MicroMV tape in my life. Point is, companies are insistent on trying to develop a format that "sticks" with the masses so they can reap the profits of mass appeal. Unfortunately, instead of working together and developing a unified standard, greed and ego gets in the way and this rarely happens. Blu-Ray probably could've been out two years ago to the consumer if they weren't still arguing with HD-DVD to this day. Hopefully P2 won't stay "Panasonic-only;" that would certainly help in its success. But as with any new technology, you have to do research, decide what works best for you, and go with it. If you sit around worrying what the format will be like in 5 to 10 years, you'll never get anything made.

I know that this is new technology, but we, as independent producers, are being asked to 'beta test", at our expense, these new ways to capture (and play back) images until one emerges as the winner... And the point I was making is that we are being told we need it now, when in fact there is a minimal need in the marketplace for HD deliverables...

In many ways, you're right. But that's nothing new, either. It's the way new technology gets served and implemented. And perhaps you don't need HD deliverables right now. No one is forcing you to buy anything. But many people like the idea of "future proofing" their work, and let's also not discredit the fact that the HVX is quite a formidable SD camera as well. It has many benefits over the DVX, including 4:2:2 recording, instant access, variable framerates, and lesser-compressed DVCPRO50 recording. Some people may be interested in the HVX simply for P2 functionality alone (HD or not). So while it may be ahead of its time (and ahead of many users' needs) at this particular moment, that doesn't mean that's the only thing they're touting. They've done a great job creating it as a "transitional" camera; moreso than any other vendor, I believe.

But the films I make often take 2-3 years to shoot and edit, so I have to anticipate needs 2-3 years from now when I start a new film, so that's why I don't want to be a victim of buzz-word marketing - and you've got to admit it's been pretty confusing (why else would we all be Ford versus Chevy bashing on these forums).

I don't think you have anything to worry about. P2 is not going to be dead in 2-3 years, and you will certainly still have the tools with which to edit your movie. A computer today can handle the footage just fine, and that same computer will handle the footage just fine in two years. DVD isn't going to be dead in two years. That doesn't mean that another format won't come along, or the emergence of Blu-Ray won't start shifting things, or anything else you can dream up won't happen. But you can't live in paranoia. Go get the tools that best suit your needs and start shooting. If, in three years, P2 hasn't taken off and you decide to move to something else, that's always an option. I really don't think that the format will have dissolved that quickly... some people may just be starting to accquaint themselves with it (just as some people are only now buying their first DVX today).

I said money isn't an issue for me - it isn't if I can write the cost into a budget. Panasonic, with the introduction of the 100 and the 100A, showed that they are listening to at least some "pro" needs, and I, also, do believe that solid state is the wave of the future.

I think that solid state is more than a wave, it's the unquestionable direction we're headed. And again, if money isn't an issue, then most of your problems are already solved. Many of us don't have that luxury. But as has been pointed out already, the cost of P2 (even buying it) is no more expensive than purchasing/proccessing/developing/converting film stock, and then you OWN the cards so you can use them over and over and over again (something you obviously can't do with film). So P2 costs, while seemingly high at first glance, pay for themselves easily over time and become quite a financially viable solution.

So, if it (HD) is required for a project, I'll buy an HVX with at least 6 P2 cards (that's how many 16mm magazines I've found I need, at 10 minutes each) and I won't look back...

I doubt any of my projects will "require" HD for awhile, but just being able to shoot with the advantages of P2 (instant access to the footage and eliminating any need for capturing) more than tip the scales in its favor for me. Then, as a bonus, the HD is already there when I might need it in the future.

Although, as I've said several times before, I detest the 1950's ergonomics of "Handicams" - no professional camera has been designed with the viewfinder on the back since Eclair introduced the NPR in 1966 - and, please, I don't want to argue about this any more. If you're okay with it, fine.. I'm not.. and I wish Panasonic would add an intermediate camera (similar to the old Sony DSR-200 - a really well designed camera ergonomically speaking) to the P2 line-up.

I do agree with you on this one, although you can't have everything. Many people have said the biggest deterrent of the HVX is its form factor, and I share this sentiment, but it's not enough to warrant not getting the camera. The XLH1 and the HD100 have much nicer designs, but it's pretty clear that if the footage doesn't hold up, it's next to irrelevant.

I'd rent if I could, but the time I take to shoot a doc precludes that. And if the whole format (whatever you want to call it) thing was resolved, I wouldn't hesitate buying a top end camera.. but not until then, because now it seems I'm having to acquire something new every time I enter pre-production on a film - and that much $ I cannot afford every 2 years...

You are in a bit of a pickle because of your unique situation of needing three years to shoot something. Most people don't have that restriction. I agree that I don't think renting would really be worth your time or money with that kind of long-term commitment. However, when bigger and better cameras come along, your P2 cards will still be usable and my guess is the camera will still have good value. The DVX still has incredible demand and the street price has dropped on it very little. Sometimes taking the next step forward involves a bit of risk. If it's really that stressful for you, you can always shoot on DV tape which you know will be around for several years to come. You don't HAVE to buy into the new technologies. The options are there, however, and although many of them will fail, the increased competition only fuels progress and better design and the consumers will ultimately win in the end.