Is Canon getting ready to release new cinema camera/s? Big C200 Price reduction
- Thread starter Ken1212
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
I think we're running up against the bounds of physics. There's only so much performance that can be wrung out of CMOS and CCD sensors. And there's only so much detail that our eyes can perceive. Now, these limits can be met with $2k cameras.
Getting a more expensive camera can provide versatility and reliability beyond the needs of or justified by the budget of casual productions. For slotting into a complex accessories ecosystem, powering those accessories/lenses from the body, etc.
Maybe there will someday be a new imaging technology that can capture 22 stops of DR at iso 200000 and usher in an industry-wide upgrade cycle
Getting a more expensive camera can provide versatility and reliability beyond the needs of or justified by the budget of casual productions. For slotting into a complex accessories ecosystem, powering those accessories/lenses from the body, etc.
Maybe there will someday be a new imaging technology that can capture 22 stops of DR at iso 200000 and usher in an industry-wide upgrade cycle
An average human eye - not everyone is Ted Williams - can see anywhere between 50 MPX in the middle to 10-15 MPX at the retina edges. Likewise, a maximum dynamic range may be around 20-22 stops but the eyes adjust to half that. (I remember reading on Image Sensor World about advances in the car sensor technology, where someone mentioned that 18 stops is what you get when car headlights blind you in absolute darkness ... i.e., it's not only uncomfortable, it's painful). Which basically means that digital video is pretty much at the end of its usability.
In photos, it's a bit different because, the higher the res, the more one can crop. In the old days of a decade ago, one had to stitch for a panoramic image and it looked like sh!t. Now, one can just take a very wide angle lens and crop with sufficient detail remaining.
PS. A few weeks ago, when Panasonic S5II was announced, I saw its preview off Adorama. Panasonic paid someone to go somewhere really cold - and I don't mean the back of the Budweiser fridge - and film nature with a preproduction unit. And I recall thinking, "This is pretty. It may not be Alexa but it's pretty and it's good enough for everyone. Even looking at footage from both cameras side by side". And that's a $2,000 model.
In photos, it's a bit different because, the higher the res, the more one can crop. In the old days of a decade ago, one had to stitch for a panoramic image and it looked like sh!t. Now, one can just take a very wide angle lens and crop with sufficient detail remaining.
PS. A few weeks ago, when Panasonic S5II was announced, I saw its preview off Adorama. Panasonic paid someone to go somewhere really cold - and I don't mean the back of the Budweiser fridge - and film nature with a preproduction unit. And I recall thinking, "This is pretty. It may not be Alexa but it's pretty and it's good enough for everyone. Even looking at footage from both cameras side by side". And that's a $2,000 model.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
input dynamic range is nothing to do with outut dynami range.
a lit car driving through a dark forest is not un unusual scene and there is no reason why folk should not want to record it.. and then lift the forest and drop the lights in post to make an image on screen that is pleasant on the eye.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
It is often forgotten that two cheap cameras are more robust than one expensive one.
going to namibia? need to be shooting at the end of the trip? An alexa wont fall apart but it might be nicked or have matoko spilled in it.. best to have a sony and a spare.
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It a very good point that the image from a $2k camera is 'good enough'
My personal problem with $2k cameras is not the image but the fooking leads sticking out the side and lack of nd - the C200 that I own is pretty much the cheapest (large chip) camera that had good lead placement and ND. That why I bought it.
Its certainly cheap vs sony when you throw on some used EF.
(canon didnt get lead placement good on any cams before the c200 with top xlr chritmas tree arangement)
I apologize for being unfamiliar with the lingo here. By “lead placement” do you mean the cables/inputs/outputs (compared to the C300)?
Brace the C70 against your shoulder and you've got an HDMI cable in your face. On re-reading though, that's not what he meant. I assume he meant the C300 with its weird audio module.
As an aside, senior guy at a pro video distributor in Hong Kong told me that TV commercials here are shifting from ARRI to Blackmagic. Apparently, they were all using Resolve anyway so why not film directly into BRAW? Reliability is not an issue as they can have multiple bodies on set for a fraction of the price of an Alexa, and the quality is close enough.
As an aside, senior guy at a pro video distributor in Hong Kong told me that TV commercials here are shifting from ARRI to Blackmagic. Apparently, they were all using Resolve anyway so why not film directly into BRAW? Reliability is not an issue as they can have multiple bodies on set for a fraction of the price of an Alexa, and the quality is close enough.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Yes lead placement is unacceptable on the hdmi xlr on c70, every mirrorles, and the xlrs on the earlier canon c300 i and ii were horrific.
also those horror boxes to put xlr into a mirrorles are sh-t
and the fixed evf lead is too short on the fs7-6-9
not to mention all the leads that poke out the side of 'cheap' monitors like atomos
also those horror boxes to put xlr into a mirrorles are sh-t
and the fixed evf lead is too short on the fs7-6-9
not to mention all the leads that poke out the side of 'cheap' monitors like atomos
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i am not sure how the C70 was introduced into this discussion. I thought it was a comparison of the C200 and C300. :2vrolijk_08:
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think it is about introduction of new cameras and their relevance (or not). since the thread started the 500 and 300 have had price cuts as well as the 200 upping the likelyhood of a new generation of the c line.
That's an interesting take. I am not sure folks at Arnold und Richter would concur. They'd rather spread 17 stops over 12 than vice versa.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
seems obvious, capture everything you can.
deliver in post what you want your audience to experience.
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arri dont have a monopoly on image knowledge. im more in the ansel adams camp.
deliver in post what you want your audience to experience.
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arri dont have a monopoly on image knowledge. im more in the ansel adams camp.
ARRI may not have a monopoly but their product is engineered to the hilt. Which is why they charge what they do. And that's why they own a lion share of the Hollywood high budget production.
As to Ansel Adams - hooray for large format digital. Maybe not in 2023 but soon.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Im genuinely confused. Surely the idea is to capture as much data as possible and fungle the bits you need in post to create your image.
No one ever complained that you could pull a window back but chose not to, or that you could see the black cat in the coal hole but chose to crush the blacks so he was hidden.
OK data heads trying to shoot at 35mbs might not want the data.
No one ever complained that you could pull a window back but chose not to, or that you could see the black cat in the coal hole but chose to crush the blacks so he was hidden.
OK data heads trying to shoot at 35mbs might not want the data.
Surely, it's exactly like that.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Agreed. I like to fungle my bits as much as i can
Are your bits fungible or NFT?
cpreston
Veteran
Whoever is running Canon Rumors is suggesting the next set of cameras will be a C200 II and a C700 II, although I believe the rumor was that the C700 II will have a body style more like the current line than the larger production camera. I guess they could try to slot the C700 II into the under $20,000 range in the hopes that it might actually sell this time. Or maybe they could try to compete with the Venice, but that would be a leap.
https://www.canonrumors.com/next-up-for-canon-the-cinema-eos-lineup-ahead-of-nab-2023/
https://www.canonrumors.com/next-up-for-canon-the-cinema-eos-lineup-ahead-of-nab-2023/