Is Canon getting ready to release new cinema camera/s? Big C200 Price reduction

[DLD]

Canon kept C100MKII as a "professional" HD camera and offered C200 as an entry level professional 4K model by 2017. While CFast 2.0 cards were very expensive back then and the decision to only offer 8-bit 4K, as an alternative to CRL was, obviously, product crippling, the unit was still a great bang for the buck.

BTW, it was priced where the original C100 (actually at $7,500 vs. $8,000) was five years earlier and, unlike C300MKII, was a huge success for the company.

 

[NorBro]

It's also really pretty :kiss: ...although the illuminated buttons on the others are prettier.

 

[norway]

Remember when Canon displayed an 8K prototype at Photokina 2016? A C300 MKII connected to four Convergent Design Odyssey recorders?

(sarcasm) It's an outrage we had to wait 5-6 years, and all Canon is giving us is R-series bodies that can record 8K but too heavy and unwieldy to carry around. (/sarcasm)

 

[NorBro]

Somehow back then, at least to me, that didn't look or sound that crazy.

I can't even imagine it right now...it's like it was a joke.

 

[DLD]

The odd thing - which is what threw the whole industry into an upheaval - was that, after years of development, Canon didn't introduce 8K in a high tier professional body with a PL mount and all sorts of crazy add-ons, but in a sub-$4,000 camera targeted at a consumer. Normally/typically, the cutting edge innovation is introduced at the top models and then trickles down over time. With R5, Canon just flipped a middle finger to its bestest friends at SoNikon and said, "We don't go at ARRI but we're making real money". And now you got $2,000 8K cameras and you know that a 10K model is getting ready for a rollout as we speak.

PS. Now back to the Berhalter-Reyna saga.

 

[norway]

The odd thing - which is what threw the whole industry into an upheaval - was that, after years of development, Canon didn't introduce 8K in a high tier professional body with a PL mount and all sorts of crazy add-ons, but in a sub-$4,000 camera targeted at a consumer. Normally/typically, the cutting edge innovation is introduced at the top models and then trickles down over time. With R5, Canon just flipped a middle finger to its bestest friends at SoNikon and said, "We don't go at ARRI but we're making real money". And now you got $2,000 8K cameras and you know that a 10K model is getting ready for a rollout as we speak.

PS. Now back to the Berhalter-Reyna saga.

Yes, it is strange to not see it trickle down this time. I haven't tried to shoot video on any of the R-series cameras, but if you look at the output from the C70/C300 MK III the digital negative has a lot of latitude ("wiggle room"). Not sure if that is the case with the 8K H.276 files from the R cameras?

Or it could just be that Canon just don't see the Cinema and ENG spaces as profitable anymore.

 

[NorBro]

Canon maximized their profits by releasing the C300 Mark III and C500 Mark II first and getting whatever they could out of those (and upsetting a lot of people at the same time, lol), and then they shot down to that most common $4K-$6K window with the latest tech for good reason, and at a really perfect time, too.

The industry needed a change and the R5 and a7sIII were the most impactful movers and shakers we've seen in a long time.

I think it was realized the $30K thing just doesn't work anymore, so then they still had to figure out what to do with that $15K-ish price point and below.

If they went ahead and right away released a non-overheating 8K R5 (plus more) in a C300/500-type camera then they not only ran the risk of locking out too many people but then they also couldn't puzzle the lower-priced cameras the way they do now.

Naturally the mirrorless' keep climbing and can evolve and hybrid into cinema cameras that sit around that $8K-$9K window.

R5 $3800 --> R5C $4500 --> C70 $5500 --> New Model $7K --> 2023 Flagship $8500

At some point, it's like...is it better to sell 100 $11K cameras or 500 $6K cameras.

In a way, the top models non-traditionally become these consumer/prosumer cameras because they are the ones getting purchased the most.

 

[DLD]

Since Canon wasn't making many inroads in the high end/feature/1-hr TV world - danke schön, Herren Arnold und Richter - its dilemma was in between selling 5,000 $10,000 models or 100,000 $5,000 models. And a lot of AF enabled RF glass on top of it. Cripple hammer aside, it was an easy choice.

 

[morgan_moore]

I think canons real loss was $11k for the C300 vs $7k for the FS7 or was it vs the F3?. For an owner op cash buyers like me the FS7 just won.. even though I wanted the C300

Not to mention that the C300 1-2 had such a stupid xlr design that it alsmost looked like it was made by the globes worst industrial designers.. Sony.

If canon had a cheaper camera with rf mount and 2024 AF under $10g it would probably clean the floor. 480p S16 HD* would mean I took finance to get it.

Personally im unlikeley to buy the r5(c) or c70 because they are both not tools for work but bloggers playthings.. however great the codecs. I cant buy toys for more than $1000. Over $5k I need tools.

If its not got some nd xlr and cable management its a toy.

-----

*8k?WTF? the world is watching on instagram at 720 - HFR is the only game in town after functional AF. and both at the same time!

 

[DLD]

While Canon may not be completely out of the $10,000-$20,000 niche, it doesn't seem to be in a great hurry to get back into it either. C300 MKIII and C500 MKII are still sold without rebates/discounts but the real action is clearly in the $4,000-$8,000 realm. An R5 based model in a "pro-style" body with an RF mount and a few additional features should fall right around there. The market slightly above it is probably going to the used ARRI and Red product.

But not for long.

 

[Ken1212]

C300 MKIII and C500 MKII are still sold without rebates/discounts .
But not for long.

Allow me to disagree. Would you buy a C300 III or a C500 II in 2023? I would not. I will go even further, Canon has stopped manufacturing these cameras and once their numbers in the market dwindles within the next couple years they will discontinue them. While many of us talked about how Canon made a mistake by not going RF with these cameras, Canon had another plan in mind! Selling their existing discounted EF lenses stock both cinema and photo. Canon to an extent achieved their objective of selling many of those cameras the first year of launch, now in 2023 they are a tough sell.

I would love to see an R5 C in C300 III body, the question will it happen this year at NAB? The answer relies in the stock number of new C300 III and C500 II that they need to sell first. If the stock is low then we should see such a camera and if the stock is high we will have to wait until they sell more or until Sony releases a replacement for the FX9.

 

[morgan_moore]

Would you buy a C300 III or a C500 II in 2023?.

This is a hard question.

1) these cameras have good form factor, nd, xlr, connectivity, AF - to my eye they eat c70 r5, fx3 fudji s5 for breakfast.

2) the only reason not to buy them is if RF versions with better AF

 

[DLD]

Allow me to disagree. Would you buy a C300 III or a C500 II in 2023? I would not.

I think they're overpriced, given the competition, i.e., other cameras. But both are a good product, though signs are pointing to the end of the line for all the EF mount models. And Canon probably has a low enough inventory not to worry much about offering any substantial discounts.

And vive la différence! (though I don't think we're really disagreeing on the topic)

 

[morgan_moore]

I cant afford them (500 300)

but are they over priced?

on a daily rental vs the fx9 on a television doc probablt $25/day?

 

[Ken1212]

They are definitely both good products but like you suggest overpriced for a discontinued EF mount. Having said that the C200 is a great bargain at the new price and soon (after they release their first RF full body cinema camera) the C300 III and C500 II should be too. Not trying to scare C300 III and C500 II owners but that is realty. At the end, what is most important is did the camera help you grow your business and was it profitable.

I am not sure if Sony will be upgrading the FX9 this year but an 8k with internal raw and great auto focus FX9 II around $10k will be hard to beat.

 

[NorBro]

I am not sure if Sony will be upgrading the FX9 this year but an 8k with internal raw and great auto focus FX9 II around $10k will be hard to beat.

Depends on the framerates and any crops. $10K is only $1K less than the C300 Mark III, which is a 4K, internal RAW, pretty good AF camera (but S35).

I know the difference would be the 8K (and presumably full-frame), but that alone is not going to interest people for that price.

Plus, the companies are always considering their 3-4-5 year roadmap and might not offer things like full-frame 8K/60p yet at the highest bit rate that the 24p has or it might have just a small crop of 1.2x or something for the 8K/60p, etc. etc.

So then $10K for pretty much only an 8K/24p camera, if so, wouldn't be that hot.

But maybe if they added some really nice and high-quality 4K/240p...

 

[Ken1212]

Depends on the framerates and any crops. $10K is only $1K less than the C300 Mark III, which is a 4K, internal RAW, pretty good AF camera (but S35).

I know the difference would be the 8K (and presumably full-frame), but that alone is not going to interest people for that price.

Plus, the companies are always considering their 3-4-5 year roadmap and might not offer things like full-frame 8K/60p yet at the highest bit rate that the 24p has or it might have just a small crop of 1.2x or something for the 8K/60p, etc. etc.

So then $10K for pretty much only an 8K/24p camera, if so, wouldn't be that hot.

But maybe if they added some really nice and high-quality 4K/240p...

They already have 4k/120 so I do not see it being anything less. Full frame and and 8k will make our investment future proof.

When Canon released the R camera I ended up buying couple reluctantly!!!!! I wanted to buy Nikon but since both had a single SD slot I went with Canon, a great camera if you can put up with the 4k crop and the single card slot. I could see myself upgrading to an R5 C but would prefer a big brother for an A camera that has an RF mount since I don't have much in EF lenses.

 

[NorBro]

4K/240p, not 120p...that's so yesteryear.

 

[Ken1212]

2) the only reason not to buy them is if RF versions with better AF

That's exactly what kept me from buying one. But now the expectations are higher as I expect it to at least have the features of the R5 C.

 

[Ken1212]

4K/240p, not 120p...that's so yesteryear.

Higher frame rates is nice and can come in handy for some of us, 4k/240 would be great if it is clean and sharp. For example the new Panasonic S5 II 4k/120 is very soft. We need quality and not just numbers!